Unit Upgrades - Page 2

Ozymandias · February 14, 2003, 02:13

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire, IIRC the PRC retained true horse cavalry units at least into the 1970s, for use in their undeveloped hinterlands.

-Oz

Azeem · February 14, 2003, 02:38

Afghanistan (the Northern Alliance, actually) STILL had cavalry.

Sisawat · February 14, 2003, 03:50

Just because they exist in the modern era does not mean that they are modern units. They are legacy units, just like the cavalry that most of us use up to rush libraries or barracks.

Panag · February 14, 2003, 12:22

hi ,

when you look at pics from WWII you can see that the germans used cavalry up to around 1941 , .... they used horses until the end of the war in a supply role , ....

have a nice day

PLATO · February 14, 2003, 13:03

Quote:

Afghanistan (the Northern Alliance, actually) STILL had cavalry

Quote:

when you look at pics from WWII you can see that the germans used cavalry up to around 1941

I don't believe that this was the unit of choice for eithier culture. I believe that it was a cost/tech issue for both. For example: The Germans had researched the tech, but were unable to aford the upgrade for all the units. War pressed an outdated unit into service. If they had the cash (and the time), I believe that they would not have relied on Cav at all.

The afghans, as a culture, have neithier the tech, production capacity, nor cash for a force of motorized units. I believe that if they did, you would have seen columns of armour advancing on Kabul several years ago.

Quote:

Just to throw some gasoline on the fire, IIRC the PRC retained true horse cavalry units at least into the 1970s, for use in their undeveloped hinterlands.

Terrain and access to supplies is an excellent reason to keep Cav in the modern era. (Perhaps this would even apply to the Afghan example above to an extent). The point, I guess, is that these units were maintained by choice to fill a specific purpose. Allowing an upgrade does not mean you have to upgrade. If their is a specific use for them, then keep your Cav. For the stereotypical battlefield, upgrade to Motor Infantry if you want or need to commit the cash. If not, pour that gold into research and wait on MI.

Ozymandias · February 14, 2003, 14:20

Quote:

Originally posted by PLATO1003

Terrain and access to supplies is an excellent reason to keep Cav in the modern era. (Perhaps this would even apply to the Afghan example above to an extent). The point, I guess, is that these units were maintained by choice to fill a specific purpose. Allowing an upgrade does not mean you have to upgrade. If their is a specific use for them, then keep your Cav. For the stereotypical battlefield, upgrade to Motor Infantry if you want or need to commit the cash. If not, pour that gold into research and wait on MI.

Especially if every motorized unit is flagged "Wheeled" and Cavalry is not -- assuming, of course, that there's some serious terrain around barred to Wheeled units.

... Anybody feel like mounting a Maoist soldier with an AK47 on a horse? This might (a) be good for various scenarios and (b) offer an alternative heavy-infantry-firepower unit, with a decent movement rate, without requiring Oil.

-Oz

Underseer · February 14, 2003, 15:29

My vote would go for air cav (which would be able to kill ground units, but should be in danger of being killed by ground units) or a recon unit with higher movement (4ish?) and crappy attack and defense scores (at least crappy relative to other modern ground units).

Sisawat · February 14, 2003, 15:49

Now I like that idea. Air Cav. That would be a unit not already covered by other existing units.

PLATO · February 15, 2003, 03:02

This from Master Zen earlier in the thread:

Quote:

Actually there is an Armored Cav division, the 1st Cavalry Division (in Vietnam it was an Air Cav division).

Also in the "* after Elite" thread it was suggested an upgrade to helicopter.

Although an air cav unit would be really cool, I don't think it is the upgrade for Cav. If Panag had a hard time seeing you go into a barn with a horse and come out with an abrams, then can you picture a reaction to going in with a horse and coming out the roof in an armed helicopter??

I still believe that the next step is the motorized infantry that was layed out above.

What do you think of the AIR CAV as an upgrade from helicopter or paratrooper???

Ozymandias · February 15, 2003, 03:57

Quote:

Originally posted by PLATO1003

What do you think of the AIR CAV as an upgrade from helicopter or paratrooper???

Probably from para -- sometime after WW2, the US 82nd "Airborne" remained paras whereas the 101st became "Airmobile" -- although when most of us think of "Death From Above" it's probably the 1st Air Cav, deployed in Vietnam, which comes to mind ...

The problem remains though of what to do about cavalry; personally, I still like the upgrade to WWI style armored cars, then WW2 style, then some specialized modern recon vehicle, perhaps LAV ...

-Oz

Master Zen · February 15, 2003, 04:03

Quote:

Originally posted by PLATO1003

What do you think of the AIR CAV as an upgrade from helicopter or paratrooper???

I use the Modern Infantry unit which can be put into helicopters. I guess that's my version of the Air Cav

Panag · February 16, 2003, 10:19

Quote:

Originally posted by PLATO1003
This from Master Zen earlier in the thread:

Also in the "* after Elite" thread it was suggested an upgrade to helicopter.

Although an air cav unit would be really cool, I don't think it is the upgrade for Cav. If Panag had a hard time seeing you go into a barn with a horse and come out with an abrams, then can you picture a reaction to going in with a horse and coming out the roof in an armed helicopter??

I still believe that the next step is the motorized infantry that was layed out above.

What do you think of the AIR CAV as an upgrade from helicopter or paratrooper???

hi ,

imagine , you go with a horse in a barn and fly out

well aircav could be very usefull but it should not be born out of an other unit , ....

have a nice day

PLATO · February 18, 2003, 10:27

Quote:

imagine , you go with a horse in a barn and fly out

We could call it the Pegasus unit!!!

Azeem · February 18, 2003, 14:12

I simply have my Cavalry upgrade to regular tanks. They use similar tactics, anyway. But I might have to tweak the tank's power so it isn't such a big jump.

From the way I see it, people once relied on horses from stables as a means of transportation or warfare, but in the modern era, people then rely on automotives. So it's like disbanding the Cavalry while at the same time re-equiping the military with tanks.

PLATO · February 18, 2003, 15:23

Azeem: We actually had a pretty lively discussion on those issues earlier in the thread. The conclusion that appears to have reached a general consensus is that the Cav don't need to be integrated into the Tank-MA development, but rather into a intermediate infantry unit with some motorized capability (Panag's Motor Infantry) or a mobile lightly armored unit (Oz's armoured car).

I am pretty convinced that an upgrade to Tank would make the situation way to overwhelming. How does it generally work out in your Mod

Sallandair · February 18, 2003, 17:24

Cav to Tanks - bah ... no true Cavalryman would never allow himself to be associated with a tank.

Cavalry in recent years upgraded to M113s (personal carriers), UH-1s (Air Cav via the Huey), HMMMV (High Mobility, Multi-purpose Wheeled Vehicle which is normally equipped with a MK-19 40mm grenade launcher or M2 50cal MG), CFV (Cavalry Fighting Vehicle which is equipped with 25mm Bushmaster MG, TOW missiles, and a 7.62mm coaxal MG) and for us LRRPs (Long Range Reconiassance Patrol) team - whatever we can carry.

True both are from the ARMOR BRANCH if you are speaking of US Armed Forces. Tanks were meant to kill as the scouts (eyes and ears of the army) were meant to sneek and peek and tell those tanks where to kill, unlike their historical counterparts of the past.

This could be a valid reason why Cavalry do not / should not upgrade. Their use in land warfare has changed from firepower to reconiassance with the use of artillery being their best asset.

As a Cavalryman might say - You know why tanks attack in a line formation? Usually, because only one tanker can read a map and the rest follow his lead.

See you on the high ground - for those who camp at "Fiddler's Green"

Panag · February 18, 2003, 18:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Azeem
I simply have my Cavalry upgrade to regular tanks. They use similar tactics, anyway. But I might have to tweak the tank's power so it isn't such a big jump.

From the way I see it, people once relied on horses from stables as a means of transportation or warfare, but in the modern era, people then rely on automotives. So it's like disbanding the Cavalry while at the same time re-equiping the military with tanks.

hi ,

to powerfull , it tends to unbalance the game , ....

have a nice day