Can we Create an America that can Lead the World - Page 15

Ben Kenobi · February 13, 2003, 01:20

DuncanK-

Quote:

It's the protestant ethic which is keeping us from advancing our society. There is nothing wrong with family, but when you treat your non-family members like they are the enemy that's not civil at all and its no basis for society.

Personal responsibility does not have to be diferent from social responsibility. This is only a Protestant ethic. It is really unique to America.

Duncan, in what sense is neglecting society a 'Protestant' ethic? There are surely Protestants who are concerned about the social welfare of those worse off.

Willem · February 13, 2003, 05:47

Quote:

Originally posted by obiwan18
DuncanK-

Duncan, in what sense is neglecting society a 'Protestant' ethic? There are surely Protestants who are concerned about the social welfare of those worse off.

You better not get him started, he's a communist. They don't like you Christians.

Daz · February 13, 2003, 06:30

I suggest a thread named:

CAN WE STOP AMERICA THAT WANTS TO LEAD THE WORLD?

Dry · February 13, 2003, 06:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
What does Luxemburg make or do, other than postage stamps? (No offense to Luxemburgers)

Banking.

Tattila the Hun · February 13, 2003, 06:47

Finland should rule the world!

(And we will...

)

Daz · February 13, 2003, 07:03

Iron chancellor: Too late, offense taken!

Being the military big-cheese of Luxemburg temporary living abroad I hereby declare war to evil USA.

Iron Chancellor · February 13, 2003, 10:03

Oh, dear, the Luxemburger army, second only to the militaristic Swiss and imperialistic Lichtensteiners. It's time I activated our defense pact with Andorra and the Vatican City. Now, no one can stop us.

Seriously, though, banking was what I thought. Is there a grand duke of Luxemburg?

I'm glad I'm a careless bastard of a Presbyterian, which allows me to stiff the poor and trample widows and orphans, despite the fact that, you know, I give to charity and do community service. I love demonizing Communist propaganda, don't you?

Willem · February 13, 2003, 10:10

All right, it looks like we finally shut him up, the communist uprising has been repelled!

Ned · February 13, 2003, 12:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
Would you prefer the east German forces to go into west Berlin to, you know, send them home?

Seriously, though, I am against the shooting part, as well, but there is nothing wrong with building the wall, and punishing those that try to exit.

Azazel, I am beginning to lose respect for you big time.

DuncanK · February 13, 2003, 13:15

Quote:

Originally posted by obiwan18
Duncan, in what sense is neglecting society a 'Protestant' ethic? There are surely Protestants who are concerned about the social welfare of those worse off.

Some people reject it, but the Protestant work ethic is very real even today.

DuncanK · February 13, 2003, 13:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Man this feels like one of Roland's threads.

The CIA factbook lists the 2001 PPP numbers, probably the USA has gone down since then:

Luxemburg $43,400
USA $36,300
San Marino $34,600
Switzerland $31,100
Norway $30,800

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...elds/2004.html

Well this list uses PPP. I forgot what that is exactly, but it obviously makes a big difference. 2k per capita for US.

DuncanK · February 13, 2003, 13:37

PPP calculates the exchange rates of the national currencies. The US GDP per capital with PPP is higher because of the strong dollar. When you take the factor out it drops considerably.

Iron Chancellor · February 13, 2003, 15:32

PPP means Purchasing Power Parity, it's the theory that states everything costs the same in different currencies, i.e. if a Big Mac costs one pound in Britain and two dollars in the US, the exchange rate is fixed at 1:2.

By the way, I recommend you read some O'Rourke, specifically Eat the Rich, but also All the Trouble in the World. Great reads, and also quite enlightening as to the effects of centralized planning and socialism on both people and the environment.

DuncanK · February 13, 2003, 15:35

IronC,

No it justs assumes that things cost the same everywhere. There is a difference.

Iron Chancellor · February 13, 2003, 15:41

Excuse me, what I meant to write was that everything has a single value that varies in different currency amounts, but should fundamentally remain at one value, and that the exchange rates should reflect that.

Ben Kenobi · February 13, 2003, 18:15

Quote:

Some people reject it, but the Protestant work ethic is very real even today.

DuncanK, surely they are non-Protestants who also behave this way. In what sense is this work ethic 'Protestant?' as opposed to Catholic, or some other denomination?

Ted Striker · February 14, 2003, 00:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
What does Luxemburg make or do, other than postage stamps? (No offense to Luxemburgers)

Live off the interest from dirty secret Nazi trust funds.

Oh wait, that's Switzerland.

Iron Chancellor · February 14, 2003, 10:07

I like how you can characterize greed as protestant and get away wit hit, but imagine using the phrase "crazy as a Muslim" or "thrifty like a Jew"; not that I condone the use of any of them, but THINK before you use a term that makes a gross generalization of peoples.

Iron Chancellor · February 14, 2003, 10:08

But, of course, I am a capitalist, and so am a filthy bloodsucking tyrant, just like all of my compatriots; right, DuncanK?

DuncanK · February 14, 2003, 13:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
I like how you can characterize greed as protestant and get away wit hit, but imagine using the phrase "crazy as a Muslim" or "thrifty like a Jew"; not that I condone the use of any of them, but THINK before you use a term that makes a gross generalization of peoples.

First of all I didn't say there was anything wrong with being thrifty. The protestants in this country historically taught there children that people were poor by no ones fault but their own, and that if they couldn't take care of themselves than it was gods will that they should parish. We really are still stuck with that faulty logic.

If you want to just disregard the fact that protestantism teaches individualism that's your choice, but you won't see things clearly until you do so.

Iron Chancellor · February 14, 2003, 13:57

I hate to get into a theological discussion, and will not, but while Protestantism does put emphasis on individual faith primarily and good deeds secondly, however, I haven't heard you say anything about the Red Cross or Salvation Army, to name the most well known, groups founded by Protestants to help those in poverty.

DuncanK · February 14, 2003, 14:03

If your disagreeing with me that American society is individualistic, than I give you a big WHAT EVER!

DinoDoc · February 14, 2003, 14:37

Why is that a bad thing? Forming a collectivist culture doesn't appeal to me.

Velociryx · February 14, 2003, 14:37

Yes, Americans tend to be highly individualistic. There's a streak that runs a mile deep, and I believe that to be an exceedingly good thing.

There is also a great deal of generosity in this nation. The groups mentioned above are but a handful of a truly *staggering* number of outreach groups founded by those evil Protestants to help those less fortunate.

To deny this is to turn a blind eye to the truth.

The Protestant ethic you complain about runs counter to your beliefs. You would rather see human beings behave more like bees or ants. Communal in their nature.

The problem with this approach is that greed cannot be suppressed. People are....greedy. They WANT stuff.

They want their work to count for something, and they want their effort to be rewarded.

Communism reduces everybody to the lowest common denominator, which works very much against the notion of individual hard work leading to individual gain.

That is, at the core of it, why it has failed so spectacularly in the past, and why it will continue to fail if attempted again.

Well, that, plus the fact that people have natural ambition, and a communist utopia (if one could ever exist) would quickly fall prey to the power of ambitious men.

-=Vel=-

DuncanK · February 14, 2003, 14:50

Americans believe in classism and elitism. That's the bad part about indivildualism. Of course there is a good part about individualism. That is taking initiative etc.... I wasn't talking about that. That exists in all cultures.

Az · February 14, 2003, 15:43

I don't believe that Americans believe in classism. Not the TRUE americans, that is. The american spirit, is supposedly the spirit of the outback. Of course, with that gone, There is little to hold even that part, which never formed the entire picture, true.

Velociryx · February 14, 2003, 16:03

Americans believe in *work.*

Effort and action.

Americans believe that the work of an individual should MEAN something, and that an individual who is willing to apply himself can, through work (both hard AND smart work) succeed, excel, and advance himself.

Some will work harder or smarter, and advance themselves further than others. A side effect of this is "classism" as you put it. Because different efforts equal different results, there will be disparities. The system, however, is designed with numerous ways to level the playing field. If you choose to ignore them, or not take advantage of them, that is your individual choice.

-=Vel=-

Az · February 14, 2003, 16:13

Quote:

Americans believe in *work.*

No, as an outsider viewer, I don't think you believe in work. Money, yes. Work, only if it entails money .

DuncanK · February 14, 2003, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Americans believe in *work.*

Effort and action.

Americans believe that the work of an individual should MEAN something, and that an individual who is willing to apply himself can, through work (both hard AND smart work) succeed, excel, and advance himself.

Some will work harder or smarter, and advance themselves further than others. A side effect of this is "classism" as you put it. Because different efforts equal different results, there will be disparities. The system, however, is designed with numerous ways to level the playing field. If you choose to ignore them, or not take advantage of them, that is your individual choice.

-=Vel=-

Of course we agree that people should be able to keep what they work for. People should not be elevated to a high class on the backs of hard working people simply because of who their parents are.

We've been around and around this so many times, I say we let this thread go to archive unless someone has a new point.

Velociryx · February 14, 2003, 16:40

Faulty logic, Duncan.

IF you say that people get to keep what they work for, then you acknowlege that superior effort (either harder or smarter work) should be rewarded, and IF that is the case, and at the end of my long life, if I CHOOSE to give the fruits of my labor to my children, WHO ARE YOU to tell me I cannot? Did you work for what I created? No! So if I choose to let my children benefit from it, what concern could it possibly be of yours?

-=Vel=-