Schröder's coalition near collapse over leak?

[MBD]

Schröder's coalition near collapse over leak
From Roger Boyes in Berlin


GERMANY’S coalition Government was on the brink of collapse yesterday as details emerged of a row between Gerhard Schröder, the Chancellor, and Joschka Fischer, the Foreign Minister, who threatened to quit over differences on Iraq. Herr Fischer, the leader of the Green Party, was enraged over weekend press leaks of a Franco-German plan to establish a UN protectorate in Iraq. The leak, to Der Spiegel magazine, appeared to come from the Chancellery or Social Democrat headquarters.
The Foreign Minister immediately telephoned Herr Schröder to demand an explanation. “It was a loud and emotional exchange of views,” a German diplomat said. “Relations between the Chancellor and his Foreign Minister have plunged into an ice age,” Bild newspaper said. Last night Berlin denied that there was a rift between the men.

Herr Fischer was involved in attempts to boost the presence of UN inspectors in Iraq. He appears to have passed on some information to the Pope during a meeting on Friday. But the detail in the plan published yesterday, including a proposal for UN troops to man roadblocks in Iraq with French Mirage jets flying overhead, did not form part of Foreign Ministry calculations.

German diplomats are well aware that an American plan for a robust UN inspection system was floated last year and dropped, having drawn little international enthusiasm. A European reworking of that plan, drawn up without the consultation of the United States, would be seen only as an affront by Washington.

Herr Fischer has seen his diplomatic options diminish in the past six months as Herr Schröder became more vocal in his opposition to war. Germany’s isolation was evident at the weekend’s defence conference in Munich, attended by Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, where Herr Fischer bore the brunt of American fury at Germany’s stand on Iraq.

Herr Fischer has now been snubbed at least three times by the Chancellor. He was not warned in advance when Herr Schröder started to mobilise voter support during the general election campaign by warning against a US-led war. He was also wrong-footed when the Chancellor announced that Germany would never accept a UN resolution “legitimising a war” against Iraq. Herr Schröder has also mocked and publicly called to order one of Herr Fischer’s key diplomats, the German envoy to the UN.

Herr Fischer’s authority depends on public support from the Chancellor, on close European co-operation beyond the Franco-German axis, on the trust of Washington and on discipline within his Green Party. All these pillars have crumbled since the general election six months ago.

When rumours of resignation spread three weeks ago, the Chancellor called in Herr Fischer for a “clarifying talk”. But for two hours the men, formerly friends who forged the idea of a Social Democratic-Green alliance in a pub conversation some 20 years ago, conducted a shouting match.

Later the Chancellor declared, to the irritation of Herr Fischer: “Let’s face it, the grass roots of the Green Party are closer to me than to the Foreign Minister.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...573483,00.html

[DinoDoc]

How is Schroder's party likely to fare in a new election?

[Ned]

What are the consequences if the government falls? Do the Christian Democrats get a shot at forming a government or are there new elections?

[Timexwatch]

Fischer is probably pissed that he didn't get a second crack at blindsiding Powell like he tried at the U.N.

As for the plan, won't this play as colonialism by every Arab nation? If the Axis of Weasel occupies Iraq, does that mean Saddam gets to stay? Why are they rehashing an American Plan? Would the French and Germans public even go for this?

[Jon Shafer]

Maybe Osama Bin Laden will take control?

[Kramerman]

It is seeming more and more probable in my eyes that the German Prime minister is just apposing the US for his own political gain, Germany being rather anti-american and all, probably makes Shcroder look like a hero.
Anybody know his ratings or anything like that?

[Shi Huangdi]

"Maybe Osama Bin Laden will take control?"

He would probably win a substantial portion of the German vote.

Schroeder is a scumbag, I sure hope his coalition collapses and the right can regain power in Germany.

[Gatekeeper]

I'm not sure what to think, especially after reading and hearing about a respected poll conducted in Germany where approximately 56 percent of the respondents considered the American people to be warmongers.

Perhaps Germany should get its internal affairs in order before embarking on international adventures, be it military, economic or diplomatic?

Gatekeeper

[Harovan]

How is Schroder's party likely to fare in a new election?

If elections were right now, he would be crushed utterly. Not because of his foreign policy, but his lousy domestic policy. But next elections are in 3 years and a lot can happen in this time.

What are the consequences if the government falls? Do the Christian Democrats get a shot at forming a government or are there new elections?

The Christian Democrats are the only alternative, strong enough to take the power. But I highly doubt, that the coalition will fail. The Greens are miffed, but they are the smaller partner and so far have always given in, when it came to a skirmish with the Social Democrats.

Germany being rather anti-american and all, probably makes Shcroder look like a hero.

Pre-Bush Germany was in no way as anti American as it is now, and I doubt it will stay this way after his defeat in 2004. And most Germans see Schröder as a moron, on the even with Bush.

I'm not sure what to think, especially after reading and hearing about a respected poll conducted in Germany where approximately 56 percent of the respondents considered the American people to be warmongers.

Does this surprise anyone? I'm rather surprised, that the number is so low.

Perhaps Germany should get its internal affairs in order before embarking on international adventures, be it military, economic or diplomatic?

Thank God the US have no internal affairs.

[Az]

did any of you German people read about the report by German intelligence that Iraq is indeed developing WMD?

I think it was in Focus. Is Focus a respectable magazine?

[oedo]

Is Focus a respectable magazine?

Hocus Focus is like "Der Spiegel" with more coloured pictures and less text.
but the german secret service seems to do a better job than CIA, let away the british. who would have thought that?

[Az]

hey, I don't know about your magazines, don't shoot the messenger.

anyway, if this article is true, why doesn't Germany support the US?

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I'm not sure what to think, especially after reading and hearing about a respected poll conducted in Germany where approximately 56 percent of the respondents considered the American people to be warmongers.

Perhaps Germany should get its internal affairs in order before embarking on international adventures, be it military, economic or diplomatic?

Gatekeeper

40 percent of british think that america is a threat to world peace (only 27 % think so for iraq and n. korea). so much for you allies.

as for internal squabbles, how about another recount in florida? we do not like this president of yours one single bit

[oedo]

hey, I don't know about your magazines, don't shoot the messenger.

anyway, if this article is true, why doesn't Germany support the US?

sorry, this wasn´t meant to shoot the messenger. Focus is just a funny magazine which no one takes too serious here.

no one in Germany really doubts about Iraq producing WMD.
but: it seems obvoius that Iraq has no nuclear weapons.
it seems obvious that Iraq is no threat to its neighbours anymore.
it seems obvious that there is not the slightest link to Al Quaeda or any other Islamistic terror group.
it seems obvious that Iraq can be disarmed in a more peaceful way within a couple of years (months?).

it seems obvious that the US administration wants war and doesn´t accept any peaceful approach in any way.
it seems obvoius that this war is more important for Bush than any existing alliance (EU, NATO, UN, Anti-Terror Pact)
that´s why Germany (or at least the German population) doesn´t support the US.

[LaRusso]

schroeder and chirac do currently represent popular opinion in europe

opposed to war:

77% Irish

72% Portuguese

78% Finns

79% Danes

79% Italians

81% Luxembourgers

81% Swedes

85% Austrians
(source: BBC)

[LaRusso]

US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld offended the French and Germans by calling them, and others who stood against the US strategy on Iraq, "old Europe".

AGAINST THE WAR
77% Irish

72% Portuguese

78% Finns

79% Danes

79% Italians

81% Luxembourgers

81% Swedes

85% Austrians

He saw the countries of "new Europe" further east as the more willing allies.

That is true of the political leaders of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and the "Vilnius Ten", all of whom have signed public letters of support for the US lead.

Yet public opinion in eastern Europe is even more hostile to war than in the west.

A Gallup International poll of a few days ago found low support in the region for war, even if sanctioned by the UN - just 38% in Romania, 28% in Bulgaria and 20% in Estonia.

The figure for Russia was 23%.

(BBC)

[Az]

I support the war, not gladly, but because of a feeling of necessity. The problem is that we can take several courses of action:

1) Retain the status quo: sanctions are in place, the "food for oil" program is still being abused by saddam, people are still dying of deseases.
2) releive the sanctions: another war in the middle east in 5 years tops. Saddam will use oil reveniew to revamp his army, and to build nukes, and it's known that he tries to aquire them.
3) go to war, and try to make it a better place, using oil reveniew.

I am not thrilled by the idea that the US will gain even MORE global power, and certainly not by the prospect of facing a ballistic missile attack in the upcoming war, but I feel that this will be a good thing, on the whole.

[TheStinger]

However those figures change if the UN agree.

But the UN agreeing depends on 1 country France. So in effect the rest of Europe are saying that they agree to war if the French do. Why are the French suddenly the self appointed moral arbiters of europe

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by TheStinger
However those figures change if the UN agree.

But the UN agreeing depends on 1 country France. So in effect the rest of Europe are saying that they agree to war if the French do. Why are the French suddenly the self appointed moral arbiters of europe

well it was british who insisted on giving french permanent seat. stalin was so appalled that you had to concede him two more seats in the general assembly for ukraine and belorussia ,so SU had three votes

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I'm not sure what to think, especially after reading and hearing about a respected poll conducted in Germany where approximately 56 percent of the respondents considered the American people to be warmongers.

I think the question related to "America". Had it been asked about the american government, you'd have got maybe 80 %. And have to wonder what the other 20 % are smoking.

IIRC the question about Saddam's credibility recieved 1 % on the positive side.

Of course if you want to see everything in terms of absolute good vs absolute evil....

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by LaRusso


well it was british who insisted on giving french permanent seat. stalin was so appalled that you had to concede him two more seats in the general assembly for ukraine and belorussia ,so SU had three votes

I'm not sure if that is in anyway relevant

[LaRusso]

well french veto is also irrelevant. dubbya will go to war no matter what

[Solly]

The right-wingers should have been elected in Germany. That way the necessary reforms of the labour laws and bureaucracy would be carried out.

[LaRusso]

actually it was their left that reformed pension system

[Solly]

It's not been reformed ffs. Germany has one of the worst pension problems in Europe looming.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Azazel
did any of you German people read about the report by German intelligence that Iraq is indeed developing WMD?

I think it was in Focus. Is Focus a respectable magazine?

"Focus" is a good political magazine. As oedo mentioned, it has more neat pictures, less comments and is a bit seen as the "Spiegel" for the simple-minded. But it is respectable.

Not so "Bild", which is mentioned in the quote in the first post. "Bild" is yellow press at its worst, and I wouldn't give a wet fart about what they write.

[oedo]

"Focus" is a good political magazine. As oedo mentioned, it has more neat pictures, less comments and is a bit seen as the "Spiegel" for the simple-minded. But it is respectable.

Not so "Bild", which is mentioned in the quote in the first post. "Bild" is yellow press at its worst, and I wouldn't give a wet fart about what they write.

hmm, probably everyone should make a judgment on his own. here´s the link to their homepage: http://focus.msn.de/

btw. does anyone still think Daniel will win the superstar contest? http://news.focus.msn.de/G/GN/gn.htm...treamsnr=9&q=3

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Boddington's
The right-wingers should have been elected in Germany. That way the necessary reforms of the labour laws and bureaucracy would be carried out.

The right-wingers were in power 16 years, 1982-1998. They cared a rats ass about reforms of labour laws, taxes, health, welfare and pensions. Care to explain this?

[Solly]

And why is unemployment rising under Schroeder then?

[oedo]

Originally posted by Boddington's
And why is unemployment rising under Schroeder then?

because Kohl was better than Schröder, in almost any way. he was more competent, more diplomatic, more trustworthy, more charismatic.....*sigh*

another reason: Schröders SPD is our labour party while CDU (Kohl) represent the conservatives. that´s why SPD has to follow the demands of the labour unions in germany. CDU could mainly ignore them. a crucial difference, which can explain a lot.