February 11, 2003, 17:23
|
#61
|
Warlord
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 196
|
Like I said all there is to gain is respect, nothing practical
__________________
If its no fun why do it? Dance like noone is watching...
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 17:36
|
#62
|
Emperor
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA
Posts: 3,197
|
You know, historically "protectorate" has generally been synonymous with "colony" or "puppet state". Which lucky UN country was going to be granted possession of Iraq? Is germany still sore about losing its "protectorates" at the end of WW2?
__________________
"I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 18:16
|
#63
|
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Ned
How do you guys in Germany feel about the proposal that you and the French have dual citizenship?
|
All what pushes a united Europe ahead, is welcome. I won't start to eat frogs, though.
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 18:24
|
#64
|
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by MBD
It looks like the Greens are stuck with the SPD. Is there any chance they'd ever join a Christian Democratic government? And for that matter, would the Free Democrats ever join an SPD government?
|
There were already coalitions SPD+FDP at federal level in the 70's/early 80's under Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt. But the Christian Democrats have problems with the Greens so far. There are discussions about Black(CDU)/Green coalitions on communal level, but any coalition on a higher level seems unlikely so far.
The worst option, of course, is a big coalition SPD/CDU. They just can't get along. There were multiple attempts on federal and state level, but they hardly did any good.
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 18:54
|
#65
|
King
Local Time: 18:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyskland
Posts: 1,952
|
We will soon get a European/German dual citizenship. Thats enough for me.
__________________
Stopped waiting for Duke Nukem
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 20:43
|
#66
|
King
Local Time: 08:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
|
If the French have dual citizenship, could they vote in German elections? And vis-a-versa?
__________________
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 20:45
|
#67
|
Deity
Local Time: 09:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: In a bamboo forest hiding from Dale.
Posts: 17,436
|
My dad is a duel national and his EU passport say EU and not UK. It does have a line talking about whivch member state he's from but the old UK/France/Germany passports are no more.
__________________
Christianity is the belief in a cosmic Jewish zombie who can give us eternal life if we symbolically eat his flesh and blood and telepathically tell him that we accept him as our lord and master so he can remove an evil force present in all humanity because a woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from an apple tree.
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 20:51
|
#68
|
Chieftain
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Dresden
Posts: 37
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Ned
How do you guys in Germany feel about the proposal that you and the French have dual citizenship?
|
A main problem in Europe is, every country cooks his own soup.
The better way is, all European Nations cooperate against the "Evil".
Isn't it?
|
|
|
|
February 11, 2003, 22:20
|
#69
|
Deity
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
|
Quote:
|
Nobody here does that, so you can have him.
|
We'll take him. Americans appreciate real leaders.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 04:19
|
#70
|
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
|
Quote:
|
If the French have dual citizenship, could they vote in German elections? And vis-a-versa?
|
Don't know. To be honest, I don't even know if this proposal is real or only a rumor. Most likely the latter. There may be thoughts to begin a common European citizenship with this kind of experiment. As for voting... why should a citizen of the European Federal State of France elect the government of the European Federal State of Germany? And if they cast votes for the common European government, why should it matter, at what side of the state border they cast it?
As Main_Brain mentioned, in the end there will be a dual European/National citizenship, or maybe only a European, as the border between Germany and France won't matter more than the border between Georgia and Florida.
Quote:
|
We'll take him. Americans appreciate real leaders.
|
That explains your current choice.
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 04:29
|
#71
|
Deity
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
|
Bush may not be the smartest, but he is a good leader. Like Reagan in that.
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 04:32
|
#72
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Adam Smith
But when the US argued for sanctions, (part of?) the EU argued for doing nothing, which fits my theory but not yours.
|
To which argument are you referring there?
About citizenship: Dual citizenship would mean the right to vote in both countries in principle; practically in the country of residence.
There already is the Union citizenship, which includes ia the right to vote in local and european elections.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 12:01
|
#73
|
King
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,631
|
HO:
If I understood correctly, you were saying that EU was being peacenik in reaction to US warmonger.
My alternative hypothesis is that EU had to be dragged into doing anything in the first place.
EU opposition to armed intervention would fit either theory.
EU opposition to sanctions would fit the latter theory but not the former.
__________________
Old posters never die.
They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 13:07
|
#74
|
Emperor
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Posts: 3,646
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Oerdin
My dad is a duel national and his EU passport say EU and not UK. It does have a line talking about whivch member state he's from but the old UK/France/Germany passports are no more.
|
Passports of European Union memberstates have been standardised, true. However, they also clearly show which memberstate issued it. My UK passport, for example (only a few years old), is the same colour and layout as every other EU-style passport. Inside, certain bits of information are given in the major languages of the EU. However, the royal seal of the UK is displayed on the front of the passport (and the seal of the republic is on the French version, the eagle on the German, etc) and the inside cover has a message from the Foreign Office, in the name of Her Majesty, urging free travel to the bearer, blah blah blah.
So they still give quite a bit of distinction to the issuing memberstate, while also showing that the state is part of the larger EU.
The French-German dual citizenship thing is something that came up in the recent anniversary of the end of hostilities between the countries. Me thinks a lot of what was said at that was the French making the federal minded Germans feel all smiley. Considering their emphisis on a Europe of nations (led by France of course), the talk about a quasi-unification with Germany didn't sit too right.
All citizens of an EU memberstate also have European citizenship in addition to their state's citizenship. It gives certain rights such as being able to use other nations representatives if you're in a country where your nation has no representation (If I'm in need of consular services in Northlandia, where the UK has no representation but the French do, I can go to the French embassy). Also, you can vote in European elections no matter what memberstate you're in, as long as you're registered to vote in that state. Finally, you can vote in local elections of the state you live in, but not national elections (if I, a Brit, lived in Paris, I could vote for the city mayor but not for the MP).
I think there maybe more benefits to the European citizenship but I'm not too sure.
__________________
Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard Dawkins
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 13:35
|
#75
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
AS:
"EU opposition to sanctions would fit the latter theory but not the former."
I meant what opposition to which sanctions you are talking about, when you said "the EU argued for doing nothing".
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 14:12
|
#76
|
King
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,631
|
IIRC, France (and other EU countries) argued for eliminating then-current sanctions.
__________________
Old posters never die.
They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 14:23
|
#77
|
Deity
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
|
back on topic - reports today that its confirmed Schroeder was source of leak -everybody seems pissed, German papers calling for Schroeders resignation, Fischer looking embarassed.
Any updates from over there????
__________________
"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 14:46
|
#78
|
Chieftain
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Dresden
Posts: 37
|
It is known that Schröder has spoken with reporter of the "Spiegel", but the contents of this conversation aren't exactly known.
It seems the "Spiegel" has interpreted some wrongly.
|
|
|
|
February 12, 2003, 15:04
|
#79
|
King
Local Time: 18:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyskland
Posts: 1,952
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Starchild
However, the royal seal of the UK is displayed on the front of the passport (and the seal of the republic is on the French version, the eagle on the German, etc)
|
Its no Eagle.. its a Vulture :=)
__________________
Stopped waiting for Duke Nukem
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 04:03
|
#80
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by Adam Smith
IIRC, France (and other EU countries) argued for eliminating then-current sanctions.
|
The military/dual-use sanctions, or the general economic sanctions?
There have been several initiatives to modify the sanction regime for humanitarian and economic interests, in part based on the assessments by the UN that they have a counterproductive effect. I do not see how this equals a pacifist stance. IIRC, one of those intitiatives came from Washington under "smart sanctions", or so.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 04:17
|
#81
|
Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by lord of the mark
back on topic - reports today that its confirmed Schroeder was source of leak -everybody seems pissed, German papers calling for Schroeders resignation, Fischer looking embarassed.
Any updates from over there????
|
Just saw in morning TV a common statement of the Social Democrats and the Greens, that there are no discords between both parties. They of course lie, after all they are politicians, but I doubt there's anything serious. Apparently things are as usual greatly exaggerated there over the pond, just like this "hate America" bull.
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 08:41
|
#82
|
King
Local Time: 10:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Lost
Posts: 1,020
|
europe is a joke. I don't understand how y'all can support and pass a resolution, and then try and weasel out, in any way possible, of the ramifications of that resolution. Then when the US acts on the UN mandate, popular opinion is against us????? seriously, WTF?
__________________
"Mal nommer les choses, c'est accroître le malheur du monde" - Camus (thanks Davout)
"I thought you must be dead ..." he said simply. "So did I for a while," said Ford, "and then I decided I was a lemon for a couple of weeks. A kept myself amused all that time jumping in and out of a gin and tonic."
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 09:47
|
#83
|
King
Local Time: 18:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyskland
Posts: 1,952
|
Cowboys...
__________________
Stopped waiting for Duke Nukem
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 11:52
|
#84
|
King
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,631
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by HershOstropoler The military/dual-use sanctions, or the general economic sanctions?
|
Dont recall which it was.
Quote:
|
[SIZE=1] There have been several initiatives to modify the sanction regime for humanitarian and economic interests, in part based on the assessments by the UN that they have a counterproductive effect. I do not see how this equals a pacifist stance. IIRC, one of those intitiatives came from Washington under "smart sanctions", or so.
|
IIRC, France opposed the Smart Sanctions, which the US proposed in response to claims that existing sanctions were counterporductive.
__________________
Old posters never die.
They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 11:56
|
#85
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
"France opposed the Smart Sanctions, which the US proposed in response to claims that existing sanctions were counterporductive."
Does that make the French warmongers?
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 12:00
|
#86
|
King
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,631
|
No, I just said the opposite.
As far as I can tell, the French (and possibly some other EU countries) have at one time or another opposed every effort to bring even diplomatic pressure to bear on Saddam.
__________________
Old posters never die.
They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 12:05
|
#87
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
But the position meant that the initial sanctions stayed.
Diplomatic pressure vs diplomatic reward? I do not think the proposals for the liftig of sanctions were unconditional.
It's a murky issue with several interests influencing it, so I very much doubt you can draw the conslusions from it you did, especially with only a rough idea of what the proposals were.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 12:14
|
#88
|
King
Local Time: 12:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 1,631
|
OK, lets try the converse.
Can you identify any specific French or EU policy for dealing with Iraq? You can't count the current "double or triple the number of inspectors and give them more time" line because they would not have adopted such a policy had the US not dragged them into it.
__________________
Old posters never die.
They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 12:26
|
#89
|
Settler
Local Time: 17:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
|
"Can you identify any specific French or EU policy for dealing with Iraq?"
None that has been really consistent. Neither had the Clinton administration. But I'm still not sure how this constitutes a pacifist stance IYO?
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
|
|
|
|
February 13, 2003, 12:58
|
#90
|
King
Local Time: 18:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyskland
Posts: 1,952
|
Personally I'd prefered the 'Old China' Solution.
Wait till he dies.
__________________
Stopped waiting for Duke Nukem
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:09.
|
|