Consensus on Cheating, Repost

[Helium Pond]

So, I'm reposting the list in a new message to get rid of all the dead weight in the other thread. Here's the state of the thing so far:

This is a list of the actions that are possible in the game, but could be considered cheating in multiplayer games. I think this is an extremely handy list to have around, so that everyone can agree to the same rules of conduct before starting a multiplayer game. I'll list all the cheats I've heard of, or have been suggested, with an asterisk next to the ones I personally don't think are cheating.

The point of this list is not to argue about whether or not a given item is a cheat. The point is to compile a list of items that could be considered cheats, so that everyone can be aware of what needs to be discussed at the start of a game.


1) *Social Engineering Quickies: changing SE to get some temporary bonus (such as a production bonus, or Planet bonus, or to get the AI to like you) then changing back, in the same turn, to get the refund.
2) *Colony Pod-Booming: using colony pods from other bases to grow a base beyond its hab complex/hab dome limits.
3) Trading Bases: exchanging bases with the AI, for any reason; the AI will accept very idiotic trades. This is different from *giving* bases to the AI, which I've never heard anyone complain about, and which I think is fair.
4) Fleecing: forcing a Submissively Pacted faction to give you more money than they actually have, by selling tech to them and pushing their energy reserves into the negative.
5) Hand-Offs: taking advantage of the infinite-range missile bug by giving your missiles to an AI faction and having them bomb your enemies.
6) Infinite Drops: using the right-click menu to move a drop-pod-equipped unit more than once in a turn.
7) Non-Base Drops: using the right-click menu to make drops that start from outside bases or airbases.
8) Silent Probing: in hotseat, probing a pacted or treatied human faction without informing them you've done so. A bug gives the notification of probe activity to the probER instead of the probEE, so they won't know it happened unless you tell them.
9) Recalling: cancelling a Pact with another faction for the sole purpose of bringing home units. (I would have put a half-asterisk in front of this one, if I could have, because I think this is a cheat only if you do it with a human player, with whom you could be colluding. If you do it with the AI, it may be very hard to re-make the Pact, so you're not getting something for nothing.)
10) *Telepathy: communicating with other human factions before you've actually met them.
11) *Workshop Upgrades: upgrading units en masse from the workshop screen, so that they can move and get upgraded in the same turn.
12) Super-Crawlers: upgrading a Supply Crawler so much that it's really expensive, and can be traded in for as many minerals as a full Secret Project; if done correctly, you can buy a secret project at 1/4 the cost.
13) Evicting: in hotseat, right-clicking on a treatied human faction in the comm menu, and choosing "demand withdrawal." Doing this lets the computer, not your opponent, decide whether to comply (90% of the time, the computer withdraws).
14) Rigging Votes: clicking on another human player's portrait during a vote, and offering them a bribe, will cause the acceptance of the bribe (and therefore their vote) to be decided by the AI, not the human player. Also, sometimes you will get an offer of bribery from another human player during the council; this offer is coming from the AI and not the human player.
15) *Suicide for Profit: disbanding your only colony pod in order to get free stuff when your faction is re-started; most factions get a free terraformer out of this, but Morgan also gets an extra 100 energy each time he does it.
16) Early Rovers: making rovers before you've gotten rover tech, by using the workshop to modify the rover chassis that comes on a probe team.
17) *Reverse Engineering: making new unit designs from captured units, and putting their components, which you don't actually have the tech for, onto other units.
18) *Double Stockpiling: taking advantage of the extra energy given to a player whenever the queue automatically switches to "Stockpile Energy."
19) *Double Terraforming: giving formers terraforming commands when their flags are already greyed out.
20) Roads Through Fungus: using the auto-build-road command to make a former build roads over fungus, if done before discovery of Centauri Empathy (the tech that allows this).

Please post any I've left out.

(I'm going to update this message as people suggest new cheats, to keep the list in once piece. This means it may look like people suggested things that were already on the list, which isn't the case.)

[Helium Pond]

So, to start off:

The issue of naval bombardment has been brought up: in MP PBEM games, you recieve no message notifying you of naval bombardment. So an opponent could sit outside of your range of sight and bombard all the terraforming along your shores, and you wouldn't know what was happening, and you might not even notice for a couple turns. Does anyone feel this should be included on the list?

[Garth Vader]

No on the naval bombardment. Because if you feel like it you can look at your empire for signs that you are being bombarded. Most of the other cheats are here because you have no way to tell if your opponent is doing something wrong.

One note on AI base trades. I would make an exception for submissive pacts. The reasoning there is that since you have basically ultimate power over them you should be able to trade at will. Although that could be done with a demand and a gift. Hmm, maybe forget I said anything

[Aredhran]

Great work Helium Pond, thanks for compiling this !

[Fitz]

HP: I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to steal a copy of your post for my website. I want the rules for some tourneys I'm helping to organize.

Feel free to visit my site in a few days (when it doesn't look like a piece of crap anymore):
www.serverofdoom.com/fitz

[Helium Pond]

No problem Fitz, thanks 'red.

[MariOne]

^bump^ for reference

{link to the original 4-paged Consensus on Cheating? thread}

Anyone wants to take on HP's role and keep this thing up-to-date, now that HP has left?

[NorthSwordsman]

quote: Originally posted by MariOne on 03-01-2001 10:22 AM ^bump^ for reference {link to the original 4-paged Consensus on Cheating? thread} Anyone wants to take on HP's role and keep this thing up-to-date, now that HP has left?

I wasn't even aware that using airdrops from the right click menu was cheating. I thought it was a normal part of the game. I usually make multiple airdrops during a turn to get a unit someplace. What a shock to find out that is cheating. . This is one of my fav tactics!

[big_canuk]

The list is great to identify all the potential cheats. I think it should be divided into a: not allowed, b: allowed, c: to be decided on a game by game, or tournement by tournement basis.

Then the "C" list would be decided on game setup, just like random events, pods, look first, etc.

Something should be added about the right way to do elections. Prior notification is nescessary, so proper communications can occur. A possible way to do it is as in Oktoberfist III: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum27/H...tml?date=17:06

I notified all, and especially Misotu, by email *before* I sent my turn to the next player. Since this was the first election, I also gave her a heads up that I may call elections a few turns prior. I gave instructions along with the game file to see the thread *before* you play your turn, and to repeat those instructions with subsequent sends.

[Aredhran]

Building rovers before discovery of Doctrine:Mobility by modifying the standard Probe Team unit.

[Misotu]

The heads up a few turns prior had me grinning.

Yeah. *After* you'd secured everyone else's vote Big_C.

Only messing around. I just wanted to post to say that I don't think it is necessary to give anyone - and particularly not the other candidate -prior warning of calling an election. It's true that Big_C raised it in advance (to, um, ask for my vote ) but I think that was unnecessary.

Notice in the turn the election is called is, however, obligatory in MP and this was certainly followed to the letter in Oktoberfist.

[big_canuk]

Misotu:

Nah, Nah, only 2 of the 5 were *secure*. I was still negotiating with the other 3. I eventually got 2 of the 3. (4 of the 5). It's nice to have a bit of insurance.

An interesting note:

The EG gives infiltration. Plan Gov gives infiltration. Why would anyone vote to give infiltration to an extra faction?
(Even the peaceful and loveable PKs)

On topic:

Something should maybe also be added to the list about the +4 and above probe rating bug. How to handle it:

a. Every factions responsibility to avoid +4

b. Announce in thread, +4 at which bases. Off limits to probes
announce +4 overall, units and all bases off limits

c. Other solutions

[gwillybj]

I play only SMAC and only SP (MP is not likely since I would not be reliable), so I'm probably out of place in this specific thread. I just wanted to comment on #17 Reverse Engineering. I figure if the AI can do it, so can I.

I was in a game where I had a Pact with Morgan. He was between Yang and me, and Yang had taken 2 of Morgan's bases with units for which Morgan had no match, and was likely to walk all over him. I gave Morgan a pre-boil Mind Worm (he did not have CentEmp) at his base closest to my border. He proceeded to send a platoon of Worms out the other side of his territory and took back his 2 bases and one of Yang's. Yang then pleaded Truce AND initiated Treaty with Morgan in one turn. (BTW, I had had no dealings at all with Yang.)

There was another occasion when I gave a unit with an armor my Pact-Partner didn't have the tech for and they began using that.

Another way to look at it: What have we been doing here on Earth for centuries when we get our hands on an ally's weaponry (whether by their choice or ours)? We take it apart to see what makes it tick, and use whatever is of use in our own armory.

[Walt]

What you're describing here, though, isn't necessarily reverse engineering. Using and producing a captured vehicle type isn't considered cheating by anyone. It's only the use of an ability of that vehicle type on a different chassis or in a component combination not found on that vehicle (or on a differnt chassis) that is objectionable.

So, the mindworm thing is okay, and the use of the unavailable armor is okay, as long as it was on the same kind of unit as was captured or transferred.

Walt

[big_canuk]

If another country had got hold of an early stealth aircraft from the US, I am sure they would not only be able to apply "stealth technology" to aircraft, but to any other vehicle to which it was applicable. Reverse engineering is not copying, it is understanding a technology, and applying it.

The only case that can be made against reverse engineering, is if a technology captured is so far advanced (say more than 2 or 3 tech levels ahead), that your scientists are unable to understand it. Two reasons to ignore this arguement. One: if you are that far ahead, you've probably won anyway, and two: this is a game, not real life, so do what is more playable and fun.

Giving a hopelessly outgunned defender a glimmer of hope by stealing a weapon is more fun. Having to plan an attack with another threat vector, is more fun.

Allow reverse engineering.

[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited March 06, 2001).]

[gwillybj]

Just wanted to highlight three important keys to my own approach:

quote: Originally posted by big_canuk on 03-06-2001 09:24 PM this is a game, not real life, so do what is more playable and fun.

[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited March 09, 2001) dang html is going to be the death of me yet.]
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited March 09, 2001).]

[vitamin j]

*Bump*

Thanks, MariOne.

[Yxklyx]

So, how is the stockpiling energy bug worked out or is it?

[vitamin j]

The Apolyton Tourney rule forbid it, last I checked. I think there was some recent discussion about it but I didn't follow it. Individual games decide in advance if it will be allowed.

[Blake]

To elaborate a little on the bombardment thing, the problem isn't so much that it gives no notification, but that it allows bombardment of allies with no diplomatic penalty.
So, the honorable thing (and it should have been coded) is if your going to bombard your allies infrastructure, declare vendetta.

I can see no problem with lack of notification when bombarding enemy infrastructure.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Yxklyx
So, how is the stockpiling energy bug worked out or is it?

Here are the agreed interforum rules for the Forum Wars series of games:

***********************************

Rules:

• Communications - none till contact, obtain commlink, or build EG
• Total freedom in Design Workshop (upgrades anytime, during turn or on-field,
• Retro-engineering - OK, except for using the probe rover chassis before discovering Doc. Mobility
• SE switches "quickies" forbidden - (obviously you can experiment to see what effect various SE choices have, but cannot change, play moves, then change back in the same turn)
• Council notification - immediate broadcast to all players (Post in the thread and e-mail to all immediately by player who has called elections, citing candidates and votes. After each player's turn, post in the thread the running totals)
• Stockpiling in Qs anytime - OK
• Crawlers Upgrade anytime - OK
• Probe actions: Must choose vendetta option when probing other players, rebuke if a pactmate (OK to probe teammate at any time)
• Using the AI - Cannot use the AI to bribe on council votes nor to demand withdrawal of units
• Cannot use the right click feature for multiple drop moves to extend range (ie limited to 8 tiles unless owning the Space Elevator SP)
• Cannot use the 'set waypoint' feature for automatic worm hunting/lifecycle enhancements
• Must 'Accept' or 'Decline' an offered Pact or Treaty that the other player has indicated 'Accepted' before exiting the diplo box and playing the turn (i.e. no accepting pending treaties/pacts *after* declaring vendetta in the same turn )
• Cannot use the F4 feature (or the bases feature of the F2 screen) to change an infiltrated faction's workers to specialists

**********************************************

Most of the CMN'd games that I set up nowadays follow these rules

Googlie

[vitamin j]

Cool, thanks for posting that Googlie. And what do you know, I agree with everything on the list! Except maybe the part about Council notification... What was the rationale there, and what's with posting the votes?

These aren't the official Apolyton rules, though, or are they now?

[Fitz]

• Communications - none till contact, obtain commlink, or build EG

You realize there is a switch in the alpha.txt and alphax.txt that reads something like:

1; if non-zero human players can comminicate any time in multi-player
1; if non-zero human players can comminicate any time in play by email

It should be mandatory for people to go into the txt files and edit them to zero if they want to play multi-player in my opinion.

[Googlie]

That's a good point, Fitz. (In the Forum Wars there are 3 teams of 2, so this rule was slightly amended to allow team mates to communicate from the start - the assumption being that they paired off on the Unity and as they were fleeing gave each other their commlink frequencies)

And vitamin j, no, they are not the official Apolyton rules. These were crafted over about 4 weeks by most of the 18 players from the 3 forums (fora?) who were going to participate in the FW series of matches

G.

[vitamin j]

Fitz:

For pbems, isn't the alpha.txt file used in the game packed with the turn? I thought I read somewhere that it was... Otherwise, you could edit your own rules file to give yourself unfair advantages in MP.

[Fitz]

Dunno, you could be right, makes sense to me. I've only played 3 pbems, all for less than 100 turns. Why take a turn every 5 days when you can take 150 in one day over the weekend?

[MariOne]

Originally posted by vitamin j
Fitz:

For pbems, isn't the alpha.txt file used in the game packed with the turn? I thought I read somewhere that it was... Otherwise, you could edit your own rules file to give yourself unfair advantages in MP.

No, alpha.txt is read EVERYTIME you open a SMAC *session*.

Thus you can even save your pbem turn halfway, alter alpha.txt, and resume it with new parameters applied. At least, I know it works for the human comms flags.
I never even imagined to check what happens if you alter for instance tech prerequisites, weapon strength, 10 minerals rush threshold / carryover limit, facilities costs (!), artillery or movement rate parameters, etc...
Of course you are spot on the UNSPEAKABLE!!!!
All advised pbem players refuse to consider this trick in their minds, or they would not bother to begin playing pbems in the first place.

Fitz, maybe because of timezones coupling, or because you don't have time to play 150 turn in MP (which are inevitably rather slow) continuously over a weekend?
BTWm the first of the two alpha.txt lines referes to IP games, the other to Hotseat/pbem.

Enforcing the setting of this flag is impossible, you should rely on the honor system.
As it was never addressed, of course players liberally exploited all the tricks it offers: e.g. you can attempt to offer your techs to a factions you didn't meet yet, and thus you'd know which of your techs they already have or not (this works for frequencies too).


FW rules:
they are indeed a bit more permissive than the Apolyton standard, espacially thanks to JAMiAM lobbying (with my marginal support...).
Total Freedom of DW upgrades is the most significant relaxed restriction w/r to mainstream ruling! I shiver myself thinking to its consequences on gameplay, most of us were long accustomed to a more tranquil end-of-turn only...

VitJ, the rationale for immediate council details broadacast is a common sense widespread ruling, and it's *equity*.
The inevitable flaw lies in that pbem must be implemented *sequentially*, while some events must be considered *simultaneous* to be fair and to give everybody the same opportunities, despite this is a TB game. Even in SP you can immediately interact with every faction during elections, regarldess whose turn is to muove the units.
Imagine if the last to vote get to know of the electiuon only when he receives his pbem tune, i.e. after everybody has casted its preference: he would be toatlly denied the option to influence other's votes, which was granted insteaed to the other players.

[vitamin j]

Well, hopefully there'll be less honor system needed for SMAC2!

Thanks for the explanation of the council thing. I hadn't thought about it like that.