Racism in Civ games?

RobN · March 6, 2001, 14:37

It seems that Civ game developers have to be careful about accusations of racism. In SMAC/X it isn`t really an issue. Obviously the faction leaders have to belong to a particular racial group, but their followers are presumably drawn from all sections of society. One of the shortcomings of Call to Power is that the races all play the same way regardless of history (I don`t know about CTP2). But if each race had its own character then some might consider it racist. In the first Civilization I seem to remember that - in my amiga version anyway - the manual mentioned Turks. These were replaced in the final game with some other race. The manual referred to the Turks as being an "unpleasant neighbour". I thought that could have been rephrased!

ssoszka · March 8, 2001, 04:42

Well, I agree that SMAC doesn't have much in the way of racism, tho having Morgan, (of African orgin) as capitalist, can conjure up images of a futuristic "gansta-pimp" but that might be far fetched...

Now Call to Power 1 on the other hand.... CTP1 has the "warrior" unit who is basically modelled after the "Native American" chieftan. The "insult upon injury" part of it being the .WAV dialog consists of comment like "Me Tired".... That is just plainly racists.

In CTP2 the warrior has been fixed. One thing I would like to see is a reasonable graphical representation of the various groups in the game. For instance the Zulu units having a darker complexion that the English. Currently everyone is white. Another aspect that annoys me is the "Samurai" unit [forgive spelling]. This is an appropriate unit for the Japanese, and maybe a few other southeast asian cultures represented in the game, but that is about it. If they had a unit unique to each culture with the same attributes that would be great.

Well I'll stop there before I really get worked up.

Horus · March 8, 2001, 05:47

(double)

[This message has been edited by Horus (edited March 08, 2001).]

Horus · March 8, 2001, 05:50

I only have to agree. My opinion is that Smac(X) is rather balanced according to race and gender perspective. The specific settings for different factions are based rather on their 'approach' than race or gender. e.g. Morgan is a capitalism and his likings is based on that very fact, not on the fact that he is coloured or male. The same is true with the rest of the bunch, the scottish Miriam is a fanatic on the first hand, not on the fat that she is a female North West European.

[This message has been edited by Horus (edited March 08, 2001).]

Chowlett · March 8, 2001, 08:10

Just to nitpick, Miriam is American. Dierdre is the Scot.

Sikander · March 8, 2001, 08:29

And we all know how THEY are.

Horus · March 8, 2001, 12:24

ssoszka · March 9, 2001, 03:58

And Dierdre is a "cutie"... but that's sexist, right? ;P

------------------
Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, hate me because I'm a rat-bastard.

Alinestra Covelia · March 9, 2001, 06:57

I had to stifle a smile when I saw that they'd made the Collectivist Militaristic Tyrant a man of ethnic Chinese origin. What's even more surprising is that he looks quite a bit like my paternal grandfather, who has more in common with Morgan than Sheng.

ssoszka · March 10, 2001, 05:09

Yeah, "Chairman" Yang is pretty played out, eh? It erked me quite a bit, I mean why do so many associate socialism with the Chinese?? It is such a tiny chapter in the book of an amazing culture. They may as well have used Lao Tzu, as the "leader" Daoist Immortalists... or something.

Hmmm that gives me an idea....

Sprayber · March 10, 2001, 06:52

quote:

Originally posted by ssoszka on 03-10-2001 04:09 AM
Yeah, "Chairman" Yang is pretty played out, eh? It erked me quite a bit, I mean why do so many associate socialism with the Chinese?? It is such a tiny chapter in the book of an amazing culture. They may as well have used Lao Tzu, as the "leader" Daoist Immortalists... or something.

Hmmm that gives me an idea....

The thing about SMAC/SMAX is that you can change things to suit your tastes. If you don't like Yang or Miriam, edit some text and change some pictures. I created a faction that is basically the Hive with a different picture and name to it. One thing about Yang though. In the game he, like most of the others, is protrayed in a one dimensional way. I have toyed with the text so that he isn't as flat as the original makes him. And to be honest, I play the Hive more than most of the other factions.

knowhow2 · March 10, 2001, 08:32

I guess they already did their best at SMAC/SMACX but I still Have a small notification about the "race" representation. There are as I see it 6 "white" factions (not white as in ideology but picture and background story representations), university, pirates, beliviers, gaians, cyborgs and drones. 2 asian, hive and cult (well sounds asian right). 1 middle east, PK. 2 african orgin, morgan, dataangel. 1 "latino", spartan. 1 Plus two non earth associated.
I would say hardley the correct representation of the earth pop. Although it could be the representation for wealth and frontier nations. Any thoughts?

OzzyKP · March 11, 2001, 20:24

Oh, come on guys. Jeeze....

Don't ruin these games with your PC bull****. The games aren't racist or sexist or anything else.

Walt · March 11, 2001, 21:44

quote:

Originally posted by OzzyKP on 03-11-2001 07:24 PM

Oh, come on guys. Jeeze....

Don't ruin these games with your PC bull****. The games aren't racist or sexist or anything else.

Oh, quite colorfully put!

And knowhow2 wrote:

quote:

I would say hardley the correct representation of the earth pop. Although it could be the representation for wealth and frontier nations. Any thoughts?

What makes you think it's supposed to represent the earth's population? The ship is launched in mid C.21 ostensibly under a U.N. charter. Translation: The U.S. and/or Europe build it and call it a U.N. project for any number of reasons (P.R. being the most likely). They choose a crew which will inevitably be an attempt to represent the population of the earth in proportionate numbers (the attempt will also inevitably fail, thus adding to the tensions which eventually turn Earth into a cinder). Of this immensely vast crew, some officers (not crew -- and therefore not chosen from a representative pool) go on to lead factions, and then some of /their/ officers (again, not chosen representatively) splinter off to form other factions. Now the number of factors contributing to the ethnic makeup of the faction leaders is so large that pop distribution on Earth is essentially not a significant contributor.

From a metagaming standpoint, the faction leaders' ethnicities were no doubt chosen to be interesting to the target audience for this game: mostly western, mostly male, mostly between the ages of 18 and 35. Seeing a cast of characters made up mostly of Indians and Chinese would be boring and alienating to most of such an audience. The current mix appears exotic to the target audience, as intended. A representative distribution would actually allow the game to convey /less/ flavor.

Walt

Horus · March 12, 2001, 05:30

The truth, the dark one:

The different faction leaders most certainly be choosen, according to their engrossed inability to see and accept another persons (i.e. faction leaders) point of view. That is their single strongest ability which they all got in common. The term "U.N." must - of course - be an abbreviation of "Unaccommodating Nations".

The faction leaders were packed into their spacecraft as they all were unbearable to the faction leaders who stayed at Earth, disregarding, sex, race or hygienical habits.

knowhow2 · March 12, 2001, 11:34

Walt,

I fully understand your point of view but I beg to differ when it comes to whether or not UN in reality means US/Europe. Economically and techically Japan should probably have a representation on the Unity. But then again it's all speculative since we talking about 50-60 years or so into the future, who would really know which are the dominating nations in the world. Anyway, I think you're observation about the marketting is right on target. It's probably more compelling to the marketting group with this ethnical divisions(?). White males 18-35 americans/europeans. Especially since all female representattion are young women with he exception for Scary Miriam (looks liitle bit like a frightning teacher of mine from the past).

Still grants me a nightmare from time to time. wrtiers note.

RedFred · March 13, 2001, 00:27

I think Walt has the right idea. The makers of the game looked more at their target market's ethnicity rather than that of the world's.

This issue has come up before. This is just a game and sometimes I think people take the whole thing a bit too seriously. On the 'taking things too seriously' front, one thing I haven't much commentary on the 'religious message'. This whole Transcendance thing is more Zen than Christian. As well, I suspect many fundamentalists of a lot of different religions (& I am not one, honest!) wouldn't be too impressed about the object of a game being to achieve godhood.

Walt · March 13, 2001, 04:22

quote:

Originally posted by RedFred on 03-12-2001 11:27 PMOn the 'taking things too seriously' front, one thing I haven't much commentary on the 'religious message'. This whole Transcendance thing is more Zen than Christian. As well, I suspect many fundamentalists of a lot of different religions (& I am not one, honest!) wouldn't be too impressed about the object of a game being to achieve godhood.

It's not a religious thing at all, except in the "Applied Theology" sense of Vernor Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep" (awesome book, a 'must-read'). The Ascent to Transcendence and the idea of transcendence of the human condition to a kind of "godhood" comes straight from the ideas and philosophies of transhumanism. For more reading on the topic, check here.

Walt

Sikander · March 14, 2001, 06:05

Yikes, I liked the Buddhist connotations better. I don't want remain in this body forever. THAT is like the seed which is afraid to destroy itself by becoming a tree.

D4everman · March 14, 2001, 17:19

Now Call to Power 1 on the other hand.... CTP1 has the "warrior" unit who is basically modelled after the "Native American" chieftan. The "insult upon injury" part of it being the .WAV dialog consists of comment like "Me Tired".... That is just plainly racists

Hmmm...my only anwer to this...and this is after playing CTP again...HOPING for a decent gaming experience...is that activision wasn't really being racist in making the old warrior character. They just didn't put any thought in it. It seems activision didn't put a lot of thought in a lot of things. (Like CTP2)

I don't think the SMACX factions were ever created to cause any racial bias. Having written one or two stories for the fiction section, I've always thought the future humans had gone beyond the concept of racial differences. Far fetched? Maybe. But the concept is far fetched.