Has Belgium gone mad?

[Ozz]

Originally posted by GePap
As for myself: I do not agree with states extanding the reach of their jurisdiction beyond their borders. Besides possible political ramifications, the justification for it is thin. If 'higher' trabnsnational values do exist which individuals can sue to bring legal action against others, such actions should occur within a transnational setting.

Got to start somewhere, some how. Belgium is doing
something to improve civilization besides just talking
about it.

International courts have been discussed since the
league of nations, progress nil. They only occur when
it is convienent for the miltary victors to finish off the
losers leaders.

Belgium is breaking some rules long overdue for
change.

[Eli]

And a little birdie told me that we might have a few "pieces" that we forgot to tell the IAEA about too.

*US targets list updated*
*Canada moved to place two, after Iraq*

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


As for myself: I do not agree with states extanding the reach of their jurisdiction beyond their borders. Besides possible political ramifications, the justification for it is thin. If 'higher' trabnsnational values do exist which individuals can sue to bring legal action against others, such actions should occur within a transnational setting.

GePap, quite sensible. Even the US at times has gone overboard. I believe, for example, it will permit two foreign companies to sue each other in US courts over violating US anti-trust laws for conduct that took place entirely outside the US. If one thinks about this for a moment, it seem preposterous.

I also willing to bet that if the US did what the Belgians did and allowed universal jurisdiction over war crimes in US courts with US marhalls and prisons enforcing penalties, the hue and cry by the rest of the world would be great. We would be arresting a lot of former world leaders and military on the mere complaint of their political enemies. We even have the death penalty.

I can imagine the stink if we were to arrest Putin and place him on trial because some Chechan filed a complaint. Just imagine the ramifications, especially if the court ordered him to be executed.

[dannubis]

No jew in belgium has been threathened in any way...

I too think that sharon must appear before the international tribunal of den haag but this poses an interesting problem, because the two countries that seem to make the most fuzz about a belgian domestic affair don't recognize this tribunal. So who are you calling hypocrits, the begian people or the people who say : "Terrorism (not even vaguely defined) can not be tolerated anymore anywhere, but war crimes commited by one of our leaders are ok"

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Eli

Quote:

And a little birdie told me that we might have a few "pieces" that we forgot to tell the IAEA about too.

*US targets list updated*
*Canada moved to place two, after Iraq*

Did you miss my discussion with DanS?

[dannubis]

and another funny thing is that i don't think anyone here has actually read the exact lines of that perticular law, so not one of you realy knows the conditions which have to be fullfilled in order to be able to exercise this law ... I know I don't.

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The fact that you ignore the crimes of your fellow leftists and constantly seek to treat Israel with a double standard only illustrates what profound hypocrites and bigots you are. Bush was right about Europe’s “International Courts” being nothing more then the kangaroo court of sycophants and leftist ideologues. They should be ignored with the derision they deserve. :doitnow:

Darling, do you have any clue what this law says or how it works? Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.

This is NOT AN OFFICIAL PROSECUTION, this is a criminal case brought by INDIVIDUALS. That procedure is always subsidiary and rather difficult to get through anyway. The courts none the less have to deal with the underlying problems, like functional immunity. It's not the US where deni de justice is the standard.

As for hypocrisy - I know of two proceedings, one regarding Israel, one Congo/Zaire. That might have to with THE COMPOSITION OF BELGIUM'S POPULATION. If there were more exile Cubans, you can bet your ass that there would be a case filed against Castro. Probably there even was one, considering the nutcases among exile cubans. The only OFFICIAL prosecution that I knew of related to Ruanda.

The level of total and utter ignorance in this thread is amazing, even by poly standards.

[Panag]

Originally posted by dannubis
No jew in belgium has been threathened in any way...

I too think that sharon must appear before the international tribunal of den haag but this poses an interesting problem, because the two countries that seem to make the most fuzz about a belgian domestic affair don't recognize this tribunal. So who are you calling hypocrits, the begian people or the people who say : "Terrorism (not even vaguely defined) can not be tolerated anymore anywhere, but war crimes commited by one of our leaders are ok"

hi ,

sjee thats funny , .....

631 complaints consirning attacks against jew and Israeli's in belgium since october the first 2002 , .....

going from police officers shouting filthy jew to shops being burned , .....

bye

[Panag]

Originally posted by Eli

Quote:

And a little birdie told me that we might have a few "pieces" that we forgot to tell the IAEA about too.

*US targets list updated*
*Canada moved to place two, after Iraq*

hi ,

new update , .....


target one , brussels belgium

targer two , bagdad iraq

target three , the whole of canada



have a nice day

[Panag]

Jerusalem, 13 February 2003

ASHKENAZI CHIEF RABBI LAU CONDEMNS BELGIUM SUPREME COURT DECISION
(Communicated by the Chief Rabbinate Spokesman)

Following are Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau comments on
Belgium's Supreme Court's decision clearing the way to try Prime
Minister Ariel Sharon for war crimes after his diplomatic immunity
lapses:

"The thought that a nation which stood by and watched when Jewish
blood was spilt like water and ignored victims' cries is now
elevating itself to the position of world policeman is outrageous in
the extreme. It is regretful that a state which remained quiet at a
time when it should have been screaming out in the name of humanity
is now expressing itself with such a pretentious and hypocritical
voice, in order to cast fault on IDF soldiers and its commanders who
endangered their own lives many times in order to refrain from
injuring innocent civilians, and in order to denigrate the behavior
of a democratic, sovereign state."

[Panag]

TEL AVIV, Israel, Feb. 13 (UPI) -- In a furious reaction to Belgium's supreme appeals court's decision that Ariel Sharon could be tried for war crimes, Israel's ambassador to Brussels returned home Thursday for indefinite "consultations" and its president said Belgium ought not act as though it were "God's deputy."

The anger largely reflected a feeling the Belgians were after Sharon because they oppose his policies.

"This file was presented for political reasons," Attorney General Eliakim Rubinstein said. "Israel need not worry about any legal proceedings. We are not war criminals and the Israel Defense Forces, Sharon and the officers are not war criminals. However, we do have to cope with political moves in a legal guise ... and this should worry us," he said.

Israel Radio commentator Yehiel Guttman put his reaction more concisely: "The Belgians are known for their anti-Semitism!" he snapped.

In a country that practices a universal draft, Israelis were also concerned that Wednesday's ruling potentially opened the door to criminal charges against any soldier involved in fighting the Palestinian uprising. But that danger is likely for senior military officers only, noted the head of the military's international law department, Col. Daniel Reisner.

The Brussels Court of Cassation ruled on Wednesday that a war crimes lawsuit against Ariel Sharon could go ahead -- but only after he no longer enjoys diplomatic immunity as prime minister of Israel. The suit was brought by Palestinian survivors of what has come to be known as the Sabra and Chatilla massacre of 1982. The plaintiffs used Belgium's so-called 1993 "genocide law," which claims universal jurisdiction allowing the country's courts to try crimes against humanity and genocide, no matter where they were committed.

Luc Walleyn, one of the lawyers representing the victims' families, described the decision as "a victory not only for the victims of Sabra and Chatilla, but for all victims of genocide or crimes against humanity. The ruling clearly shows the court's political independence."

The survivors had appealed against a lower court ruling last June that Sharon could not be prosecuted because he was not in Belgium. Indeed, the reversal surprised many observers Wednesday, as a similar case was dropped by the International Court of Justice against the former Congolese foreign minister. Abdoulaye Yerodia Ndombasi was indicted by Belgian prosecutors in 2000 for crimes against international law, including inciting racial hatred and the killing of members of Congo's ethnic-Tutsi minority.

The judges' decision means their courts may try foreigners for alleged war crimes committed in third countries, even if the defendants are absent. Israeli lawyers were studying whether that means that anyone who enters a member state of the European Union could be arrested and shipped to Brussels for trial.

In a clear call for support among its American allies, Israeli officials added that critics of the U.S. fighting in Afghanistan, or perhaps soon of its war in Iraq, could turn to the Belgian court and initiate criminal investigations of the American officers.

The case against Sharon dates back to 1982 when he was defense minister. Sharon masterminded the invasion of Lebanon -- triggered by attempted assassination of Israel's ambassador to Britain, derived to have originated with Palestinian militants based in Lebanon -- including a push northward to its capital. West Beirut at the time was under Muslim and Palestinian control.

Shortly after taking over West Beirut in September 1982, Israeli troops surrounded local Palestinian refuge camps they believed sheltered militants. Then they let in some 150 members of a Lebanese Christian militia, the Phalangists. Two days later the bodies of Palestinian civilians raped, slashed or shot littered the streets of Sabra and Chatilla -- about 800, according to Israeli estimates, and upwards of 2,000 or more according to survivors of the massacre.

An Israeli judicial commission of inquiry faulted Sharon and several generals for having failed to foresee such a massacre and for having reacted too slowly to stop it when they learned what was going on. They did not recommended criminal charges.

Sharon was forced out of the defense ministry and other officers were relieved of their command posts.

Twenty-three Palestinian survivors turned to the Belgian court and filed charges against Sharon and several generals in May 2001, two months after he became prime minister. Israel tried to block the move with legal arguments, and indeed appeared on the brink of winning after the lower court's dismissal last June.

Along with Wednesday's ruling about Sharon, the supreme appeals court also overturned the finding last year by its criminal appeals court that a lawsuit against Amos Yaron, who was brigadier general in the Israeli army in 1982, was inadmissible. In effect, the supreme appeals judges ruled Belgium's genocide law overrode its penal code, which says a case could not proceed against a person who was not in the country.

Yaron is now the Defense Ministry's director general. With him and Sharon are two others who may now face trial someday: Rafael Eitan, who was military chief of general staff, and Amir Drori, who headed the Northern Command.

Shaul Amore, who was recently replaced as ambassador to Brussels (by Yehudi Keinar who was hastily recalled), slammed the court's decision as "a campaign against Ariel Sharon, the Jewish people. There are charges there against (Palestinian leader) Yasser Arafat, (Iraqi ruler) Saddam Hussein, (Cuban President) Fidel Castro and they don't touch it. But for three years they have been pouncing on Israel and Sharon."

Foreign Minister Binyamin Netanyahu summoned Belgian Ambassador Wilfred Geens to Jerusalem for a dressing down.

"The state of Israel and the Jewish people are not ready to sustain more blood libels on European soil. What happened yesterday in Belgium is a blood libel," Netanyahu declared.

Geens did not comment. An Israeli Foreign Ministry official quoted him as having said his government has not yet studied the court's ruling.

Chief Rabbi Israel Lau issued a statement saying: "The thought that a nation which stood by and watched when Jewish blood was spilled like water and ignored victims' cries, is now elevating itself to the position of world policeman is extremely outrageous.

"It is regretful that a state which remained quiet at a time (during World War II) when it should have been screaming out in the name of humanity, is now expressing itself with such a pretentious and hypocritical voice, in order to cast fault on IDF (Israel Defense Force) soldiers and its commanders, who have endangered their own lives many times in order to refrain from injuring innocent civilians, and in order to denigrate the behavior of a democratic, sovereign state," Lau said.

President Moshe Katsav wrote the Belgian monarch Albert II that no one has the right to doubt Israel's ethical standards. The president's spokesman said that Katsav added, again in a clear reference to the Nazi persecution and killing of Jews in World War II, "Those who accuse us, would do well to reflect on their past actions."

"Belgium shouldn't be God's deputy. We, here, in Jerusalem can better safeguard our morality," Katsav asserted.

An Israeli law group, Shurat HaDin, Thursday asked the attorney general to indict former Belgian officials allegedly responsible for the murder of Congo's leader, Patrice Lumumba, in 1961. Basing itself on a recent study by a Belgian historian, the group alleged that African Affairs Minister Harold Aspermont Lynen ordered the assassination. Police officers allegedly tortured Lumumba and brought him before a firing squad that executed him, the group said.

Other proceedings under Belgium's controversial law have been brought against world leaders including Arafat, Saddam, Castro and Ivory Coast President Laurent Gbagbo. So far, however, only four Rwandans were tried and sentenced by the Belgian court for their role in the 1994 genocide of the central African country's ethnic-Tutsi minority.

[Panag]

Justice Ministry links Belgian decision with anti-US stand in NATO
By THE JERUSALEM POST INTERNET STAFFAdvertisement


Justice Minister Meir Sheetrit condemned a Belgian ruling permitting Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to be tried for war crimes and vowed to fight it "using every tool" at Israel's disposal.

In a statement, Sheetrit accused the court of succumbing to anti-Israel political pressure and even linked the ruling to Belgium's stand in NATO against the war in Iraq.

Sheetrit reacted to a ruling by Belgium's Supreme Court on Wednesday, allowing Sharon to be tried once he steps down as prime minister for a 1982 massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. The killings were the work of Israel's Christian militia allies in Lebanon.

"It is unacceptable that this small and insignificant nation would be the judge for the whole world. It is a disgrace for the legal system in that country. It has the clear scent of a personal hunt for Prime Minister Sharon," Sheetrit said.

"What have we come to? Could every country now decide to judge anything that they feel is wrong in another country?" he added.

Sheetrit noted that Israel conducted its own inquiry into the Sabra and Shatilla killings. He said Belgium was setting "practically a world precedent," by this action.

"This decision is a result of a campaign of pressure applied on the court, and followed a special law that was passed in their government," Sheetrit went on.

A ministry spokesman added that Sheetrit saw Wednesday's ruling as part of a "pattern of recent decisions made by Belgium, and in particular the allignment of Belgium with France against a war in Iraq, a veto in NATO and the siding with the Arab countries against Israeli positions."

Sheetrit said "we - as a country and as a legal system - will fight this decision with every tool and in every institution."

President Moshe Katsav also protested the ruling in a stern letter to the Belgian king.

[Panag]

On saturday , the second of november there whas a "solidarity party" organised by the "Antwerp actionplatform for a justified peace in palestine"

The program ;

15:00 Talk with ;

Shawri Armali (P.L.O represatentive in Brussels , Belgium
Suzy Mordechai (woman caolition for just peace - Israel)
Tijl de clecrq (VPK)


musical and artistic acts , and an eyewitness report by Frank Vercruyssen , Adrian Van Den Hoof ,
Pieter Emmerechts Tuur Florizoone .

19:00 Debat ;

Eddy Boutmans (secretary for aid and development - ministery of foreign affairs)
Rudy De Leeuw (foreign policy advisor ABVV - socialist union)
Tom De Saegher (advisor study service ACW)
Annuschka Vandewalle (chairman actionplatform palestine)
Moderator Rudi Franckx

21:00 Musical end


v.u. Koen Calliauw , Luikstraat 2 , 2000 Antwerp
contact 2november@palestinaplatform.be or 02/501 67 49

entrance ; day 5 euro , evening 5 euro , together 10 euro
stands and videocarrousel
Location , "the Monty" , Montignystreet 3 , Antwerp
presale ; worldshop Sint-Jacobsmarket , 03/226 02 81


the Antwerp actionplatform for a justified peace in palestine underwrites the campaign from the actionplatform palestine
take a look at the website of www.11.be/palestina for more information




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



from 12:00 saturday the place whas open to the public , at the entrance flyers where distributed , calling for a "weaponfree port in Antwerp"

organised by the www.vonk.org group (shipspotting)

the group calling itself the AAOC wants to have the Belgian and European ports free of weapons
they want a union boycot from all the people involved , port authority , port workers , other people who are directly or indirectly involved
with the transport of weapons in the port of Antwerp .

there creed , " Belgium out of NATO , NATO out of belgium "


When entering the "Monty" there whas security provided by the local police in uniform (2) and several plainclothes police man .

Unless you where in possetion of a red armtag you could not enter the meeting room . Needless to say that some people where not allowed
to enter , .......

The actual meeting part 1 ;

Suzy Mordechai ;

After a brief introduction , Suzy Mordechai started her speech ;
she started with a reference to a book , she could not remember the author , nor the tittle , in it she claims are all the problems that are in the
Middle - East , she says that those problems that are there today where predicted in the Thirties .
Israeli's use today still torture on innocent captured palestinians , up untill 1994 when the knesset passed a law that forbid the use of torture ,
torture whas a very common everyday occupation of the Israeli security forces , after 1994 they "refined" their techniques and only use it when
there is an indication of wrongdoing of the suspect . After 1994 the Israeli's prefer to use other , more psychological techniques like for an
instance the arrest of palestinians for a period of 6 months , then the Israeli's release the "suspect" and the next day the arrest them again ,
they keep doing this over and over again , until the suspect tells the security forces what they want to hear , in other words sign false
"confessions" . Every palestinian has been true this at one point or an other in his live .
In 1947 and 1948 between 550 and 650 palestinian villages where destroyed . It whas the first "etnical cleansing" after WWII .
The palestinians call this "al naqba".

She continues to give a lengthy description about the "peace movement" in Israel .

In the first months of the "second intifada" the Israeli army shot in the demonstrations , mostly small children where killed , about 140 ,
most of the killed people where shot in the head or upper torso .
The start of the intifada whas planned by the Israeli's about 6 months before it started .
The proof of this is that 6 months before it started the Israeli army "relaxed" the rule's of shooting .
At the start the demostrations where "harmless" , the Israeli's started to shoot in order to provok violence .
From the start the Israeli's started to destroy the palestinian civilian infrastructure , this whas planned , they cut up the areas in 64 enclaves
in order to "lock-up" the local population . This way they could control the palestinians , they could easier "kill" and "lock-up" the innocent
civilians .
By locking them up the Israeli's have complete control , they prevent people to go to the market , visit friends and relatives , go to school ,
Hospital , etc , .......
the Israeli's organise constantly "pogroms" in the the little villages , the Israeli's do nothing else but this , one example ; the people of a small
village had a generator the Israeli's burned it , now the Israeli's leave this village alone because there is constantly international press in it ,
but the people and the Israeli's know that the day when the press leaves they shall destroy the generator again .

End of her testimony


Tijl De Clercq ;

Introduces a the PLO ambassador to the Belgium and the European Union , he also translates the testimonies of Suzy Mordechai and
Swaki Armali .

"The Oslo agreements where not perfect , but at least they where something , ......."
" The punishment of the innocent , because they where planning "so-called" terroristic activities has to stop. "


Shawki Armali ;

Well after the excellent speach of "Suzy" i can only thabk her for what she said , she has said it all .



At this point the first meeting concludes , most people go downstairs where there are several display's and
information stands .

At these stands Suzy Mordechai deposits a large volume of information brochures from "The Israeli information center for human rights in the
territories" also known as B'TSELEM (www.btselem.org) , she claims that she had to smuggle these personal because the "Israeli security
services dont allow such things to be sended out of Israel , when they (btselem) put them in the mail to for example Belgium in never arrives ,
and when some do get shipped out of the country , the Israeli security services and the zionist lobbygroups place such presure on the
government of destination that they intercept it .

These information stands are filled with brochures and propaganda , its not for free , you have to pay to get most of it .
They are all very colorfull and expensive to print , most deal with the boycott , the murders of Sharon in Sabra and Shatilla , etc , ....
one of the brochures is a brochure that tittles "side notes in the Israeli - palestinian issue" , its a brochure made by Ludo Abicht and
Lucas Catherine , the brochure reads on the first page "the brochure the Louis Michel (current foreign minister of Belgium) stopped
under pressure of Israel" , the back reads Union of Flemish Teachers , responsable publisher , Herman Gevaert , Park de Rode Poort 21 ,
8200 Brugge Belgium . Ludo Abicht is a personal and close friend of Eddy Boutmans .

A video whas constantly playing about the massacre of "Beit Yassin" , the video showed the big numbers of palestinians that had to
flee Israel in 1948 due to the Pogroms that the Israeli's held .

Mr Shawki Armali recieved several envelopes from people , accopanied with words like "you know what to do with this" ,
"this is for our brothers in palestine" , .......

Several petitions where going around , flyers to donate money where given , etc , .....

At the bar several people told stories , there where about 15 people present who claimed to married to palestinians and all of them told
"horror" stories about how they themselves where "victims" of the Israeli brutality and artrocities , ..... one woman who claimed to be half Jewish
and married to a "palestinian freedom fighter" says ; "i cant hold a job , everytime i go for a job application here in Belgium the zionist's make
sure i cant hold a job , they actually follow me around , and when i walk in a factory for a job , they (the zionist's) enter after me and say i am
a dangerous terrorist" .

Several people from the VHO where also present , they distributed material from their backpacks that says that the holocaust never happend .

Further more several people where there who claimed to have been with "Hezbollah" in Libanon , some shall go back in the near future ,
they say that this way at least they can learn these zionist pigs a lesson or two , .......

One man in particular claimed to have been fighting along with the PLO in Rammalla , he says that its easy to buy guns from Israeli settlers ,
he also says that its so easy to get inside Israel , at the border you just say you are on a pelgrimage , ............

At the enterance doors where maps from www.passia.org that show how small the real Jewish owned land whas in 1948 , accompanied by
information that claims that Israel steals water from Jordan and Syria , etc , .......

A film made by some Belgians who traveled to Israel during the time of the "Jenin massacre" whas also played .
There "side notes" are intresting , .... one person they interviewed in palestine claims that 9/11 the attack on the world trade center in New-York
is a big joke , the US whas going to invade Afganhistan anyway because of the oil there , ......
They (the US and Israel) where preparing for a war anyway , their socio-economical industrial complex needs to make war , ......
9/11 is in reallity a "mossad" operation , the proof is that there where no Jews in the WTC during the attack , ......
More the 190 innocent civilians where murdered in Jenin , ......
A "martyr" is some-one who whas murdered by the Israeli's , .....
General Mofaz says all the time that the palestinian problem is like cancer and that the Israeli defense forces shall use chemotherapy , well
in fact General Mofaz himself is the cancer , its about time we put chemo to him , .....

Mr Eddy Boutmans whas standing upstairs in the back of the room , applauding together with several other people , including all the people
from the second part of the meeting in his hands , giving comments like , at last some-one who dares to tell the truth , ....
Mr Eddy Boutmans then sayed that Ariel Sharon , General Mofaz and Benjamin Nethanyahu where in fact nothing more then the most evil
form of cancer on this planet , ever since "man" came out of the caves in the iron age , ........
Mr Eddy Boutmans repeated this type of language over and over again during a "coffee break" , Mr Eddy Boutmans also claimed that
if there whas to be ever peace in the Middle East then those three "devils" had to be out of the way , they do not deserve to walk on the
"Holly Land" in palestine , ......
At one point there where more people around Mr Eddy Boutmans then there where people looking at the video , that whas projected at
a large plasme screen , .....
Mr Eddy Boutmans whas also saying that its about time that interantional peace troops under either European or United Nations flag invade
palestine liberate it and give it back to its origianl people and kick-out the Jews , ...........

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Blabble, babble, insult, babble, babble. (snip rest of boring triad)

Flame all you want, come up with what ever excuses you want, but in the end your government and courts are still packed with hypocrites and bigots.

[Panag]

The actual meeting part 2 ;

The second part started with a long talk about "paradigma's" , one such "paradigma" ; "Israel is a small country , a refugee base for survivors
of the Shoah , surrounded by evil arab neighbors , ......."

xxx this meeting whas radio style interview xxx

Tom De Saeger ;

The basic human rights and international law is neglected in Israel .

Eddy Boutmans ;

If you would ask me today if a where to be in favor of the creation of the state of Israel , i would say NO .
The palestinians are being surpressed and exterminated , i am sitting here as a politician , representing the Belgian government .

Rudy De Leeuw ;

The many deaths its a tragedy , palestine is a social and humane graveyard , 80 to 85 % of the palestinians is without a job .
I show my solidarity with both Israeli and palestinian unions , but my support goes out to the most needy , the poor suffering palestinians .

Annuschka Vandewalle ;

Israel is the evil occupanionist .

Eddy Boutmans ;

Its good that "labour" is out of the Israeli government , this shall lead towrds peace , BUT , in the short term this shall unfortunatly
lead towards more violence and oppression of the palestinian people .

Tom De Saegher ;

Two main points in the "chapter" and association treaty between the E.U. and Israel are constantly violated ,
1 ; the human rights
2 ; trade goods , to many goods are made in palestine
Its about time that the E.U. starts to look at the hard cold-blooded facts instead of giving out statements .

Eddy Boutmans ;

Belgium can and shall play a head-role towards the creation of a palestinian state .


Annuschka Vandewalle ;

Instead of allways talking , we should act , we should not talk , we should use whatever pressure means we have availlable .
We should cancel immediatly the association treaty !

Rudy De Leeuw ;

The palestinian econmy is suffering , there is no tourism , no building construction , etc , ..... because of the second intifada and the
destruction by the Israeli army .
What the palestinians are going true is terrible .
Its a shame how brutal the Israeli Army is opperating all the time , ....
Its a shame how the Israeli's make the palestinians depended on them , .......

Eddy Boutmans ;

When we see these things we ask that there is a trade embargo , we ask that there is an increase on the taxes of Israeli goods !
We as Europe have to form a block in order to toggle the US - Israeli allience .
Ever since Belgium has been chairman of the E.U. , the Belgian government has tried to play a head role in answer to the conflict in palestine .
"WE" (Belgian government) are asking for an extra tax on all goods made in the occupied territories .
We are trying to creat a palestinian state , trying to make a palestinian government .

The Israeli's are constantly violating the rights of the palestinians , then there is the constant destruction of property ; the constant destruction
of palestine , ......... then there are freedom fighters who blow them selves up , ......
I am against suicide bombing who target innocent civilians hé , but , ......

Annuschka Vandenwalle ;

BOYCOT , its a tool to express our concerns , we have to block especially all the agricultural products , they are grown with "stolen water" !!!
And they are harvested on the backs of poor palestinians .

Eddy Boutmans ;

We can not boycot as a government , but we can support it from a social aspect , ........ we should try to enforce the U.N. resolutions .

I do not want to disscus about the rights of the Israeli government .

Juridical its possible to recognise the palestian state , ......... and we are very close to it , we would like to see it done .


We should demand that Israel become a real democrazy , not only one for Jews .

We finance schoolbooks in palestine even if Jewish fundamentalistic lobby groups here in Belgium are trying to block this , ......
you all knwo about that one , .....

Mr Eddy Boutmans then explains about the brochure that is mentioned above and tells the whole room that he had asked his friend to make it ,
and that he did not know about Lucas Catherine working on it , yet he finds it sorry that under pressure of Jewish lobby groups he had to
withdraw them , .......

At this point the meeting comes to an end and there are some Questions asked ;

Peter Mertens asks ;

Because of 9/11 there is a terrorist , dengerous groups watchlist , the PFLP is on it , why is on it , should it not be removed , its a shame that
our brothers are on it , our brothers from the PLO and Fatah are not on it , ....

About the war in Iraq , Sharon is going to use this to persue his madness against the palestinians , of course the press shall be looking
towards Iraq , ....

Are we going to do something about the war in Iraq , blocking the port of Antwerp or so , .....?


Eddy Boutmans ;

The legitimate political ideas need to be defended .
We are against any form of logistical support in the war with Iraq
The Belgian government shall ask for compensation because of its damaged development projects , we should also look at a way to VAT , ....

Peter Veltmans asks ;

Its a public secret in Antwerp that Jews return to Israel to go and serve in the Israeli army , they participate in armed raids on poor
palestinians , what are you going to do about it , .....?


Eddy Boutmans ;

We should look into that , and if correct i believe there is a law against that , but we should check on it , ....

A woman from an action group jumps up and makes the following statement ;

"We the demand the following immediatly ; "

1 ; compensation or return of the 1948 refugees
2 ; the immediate and uncondional withdraw out of the occupied territories
3 ; the immediate dismanteling of all the settlements
4 ; the return of Jerushalem

The U.N. recognises the armed struggle , the pals are asking for armed international protection to protect them against the terrible
Israeli army , ...... what are you going to do about it , ....?

Eddy Boutmans ;

Show me a U.N. resolution that talks about armed international troops and we take it from there , the other things we can only ask ,
BUT , we should look into it , ....... and see what we can do , the recognition of palestine is one thing we can for a start , .....


The "official" meeting ends

Mr Eddy Boutmans leaves the room and goes to the room with the information stands , where he starts to say words like the following ;

"I am sick and tired of having Jewish lobby groups dictating my work , its about time they wake-up in Brussels , its about time the prime-
minister does something , we have to boycot Israel , we have to set up a trade embargo against that so called democrazy in the
Middle - East , its about time we start to openly show our support as a government with the democratically elected leader of palestine
(meaning Arafat) we should not pull out our brochure from the Middle - East its the truth , etc , .......
In short MR Eddy Boutmans sayed that he spoke on behalf of the entire Belgian government , but that the other members of the
government where afraid to speak out , due to the elections next year , .......
At one point , while talking with some people who call themselfs "extreme right" and with some palestinians he sayed the following ;
"Israel learned well from the nazi's , the only thing thats missing is the gaschambers , but they shall be there within the next 5 years ,
of course that is if we would not do anything" , .......
During a conversation with Suzy Mordechai he said "etnical cleansing of palestine started long before the Shoah , other people standing
around him immediatly started to clap in their hands , ........
Mr Eddy Boutmans particpated for the next couple of hours in many conversations in where he used the words above many times , .......

[HershOstropoler]

Originally posted by Oerdin
whine whine clueless drivel whine

Go back playing with your american flag, but don't make stains on it.

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


Darling, do you have any clue what this law says or how it works? Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.

This is NOT AN OFFICIAL PROSECUTION, this is a criminal case brought by INDIVIDUALS. That procedure is always subsidiary and rather difficult to get through anyway. The courts none the less have to deal with the underlying problems, like functional immunity. It's not the US where deni de justice is the standard.

As for hypocrisy - I know of two proceedings, one regarding Israel, one Congo/Zaire. That might have to with THE COMPOSITION OF BELGIUM'S POPULATION. If there were more exile Cubans, you can bet your ass that there would be a case filed against Castro. Probably there even was one, considering the nutcases among exile cubans. The only OFFICIAL prosecution that I knew of related to Ruanda.

The level of total and utter ignorance in this thread is amazing, even by poly standards.

hi ,

some remarks , .....

the courtcase against yasser was trown out , .....

more then a year later one against Arik is accepted , more then a year later a new case against yasser is accepted , till this day no ruling against that one , .....

have a nice day

[Dry]

Ok, I start reading all posts of the night. I will try to answer as I read.

Originally posted by panag
and they cut in the wallets they have , less revenue is less tax , is less money , .... 35.2 % of the worlds diamont trade passes true antwerp belgium , .....

That's called separation of power. Justice, when independent, may go against the interest of the country.
Some country decide of the good/evil of other country's leader without trial, because of the feelings of their population or some economical reason...
Imagine that an independent tribunal had comdemn Saddam. Who will then accused the US of going there for oil?

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler


Go back playing with your american flag, but don't make stains on it.

hi ,

can we keep this on topic please and drop the personal insults , thanks , .....

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by Dry
Ok, I start reading all posts of the night. I will try to answer as I read.

That's called separation of power. Justice, when independent, may go against the interest of the country.
Some country decide of the good/evil of other country's leader without trial, because of the feelings of their population or some economical reason...
Imagine that an independent tribunal had comdemn Saddam. Who will then accused the US of going there for oil?

hi ,

seperation of power , .....

hmmm , then why the heck are louis michel , eddy boutmans and other speaking of a political trial in the parlement , ......

not to mention some statements they make towards the community , .....

at least the former mayor of brussels and the current president of the brussels region , mr de Donea dares to say that the Jew - bashing has to stop , ......

so does one L Onkelincx , ......

have a nice day

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Go back playing with your american flag, but don't make stains on it.

More mindless drivel from a bigot and an obvious DL. What a troll...

[HershOstropoler]

No problem with keeping it on topic. But when a clueless biased ****er just dismisses a couple facts as flames and excuses, I'll reply in kind. And ignore it from here on.

"the courtcase against yasser was trown out , .....
more then a year later one against Arik is accepted , more then a year later a new case against yasser is accepted , till this day no ruling against that one , ....."

The Belgian law appears to have two flaws: The first, it allows procedures to be opened without a suspect present. So it is stuck with a fictional trial.

The second is that it invites private prosecutions, which will be instrumentalized politically. The Appeal Court put the brakes on that, the Cour de Cassation apparently losened them again.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Oerdin


More mindless drivel from a bigot and an obvious DL. What a troll...

hi ,

ignore such remarks , ......

and can we please stay on topic , come on , that cant be that difficult guys and girls , ......

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
No problem with keeping it on topic. But when a clueless biased ****er just dismisses a couple facts as flames and excuses, I'll reply in kind. And ignore it from here on.

"the courtcase against yasser was trown out , .....
more then a year later one against Arik is accepted , more then a year later a new case against yasser is accepted , till this day no ruling against that one , ....."

The Belgian law appears to have two flaws: The first, it allows procedures to be opened without a suspect present. So it is stuck with a fictional trial.

The second is that it invites private prosecutions, which will be instrumentalized politically. The Appeal Court put the brakes on that, the Cour de Cassation apparently losened them again.

hi ,

clueless and biased , against who are you talking ?

have a nice day

[HershOstropoler]

"clueless and biased , against who are you talking ?"

Not you.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

ignore such remarks , ......

and can we please stay on topic , come on , that cant be that difficult guys and girls , ......

have a nice day

No problem. He's now on the ignore list so back on topic.

[Dry]

Originally posted by panag
and they are going to teach us , ......

Who said that?
Nobody is going to teach nobody. It's all in your head or in your over-sensitivity.
Don't you know that a person is innocent before proven guilty. To be sued does not mean to be guilty. Only the man of the street thinks that.
Or do you think this is only valid in your country? Are you that insulting?

We are the first to know that a commission about the behaviour of belgians (in congo, f.i.) done by belgians self is biased. All population was between laugh and shock. Should we deny the right of congolese to go to another independent court (if it exist), because "we, most virtuous people on earth, already have judge the case"?
Why would it be different in other countries?

[Dry]

Originally posted by Ozz
35.2 % of the worlds diamont trade passes true antwerp belgium

The diamonds don't come from Israel do they now.
You think the diamond traders are going to pack
up and move to Israel? They are'nt stupid......pffffffff

No they aren't, and Panag is right. They seriously think of going away, but not all to Israel: Rotterdam or NY are good alternatives.

[Dry]

Originally posted by Ned
Why doesn't Israel simply issue an ultimatum, that Belgium withdraws the law or there exists a state of war between the two countries -- declared by Belgium.

You mean like Turkey being at war -- declared by Iraq, pehaps?

[dannubis]

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

sjee thats funny , .....

631 complaints consirning attacks against jew and Israeli's in belgium since october the first 2002 , .....

going from police officers shouting filthy jew to shops being burned , .....

bye

Not one shop has been burned .. that much i know ...

And as long as our officers don't shoot anybody in the streets because they are throwing rocks i think a little modesty of your part should suit you well...