Foils after Doc: Initiative

[Skanderbeg]

Is there anyone who builds foils (except for formers and colony pods) after discovering Doctrine: Initiative, which allows to build cruisers!
I never do, because I think, the two more move points make the difference, even if the cruiser is a little more expensive.
Are there arguments for building foils after cruiser tech, as the AI likes to do? I would agree that those silksteel or photon armoured foils look really cool, but are they of real use?

[Closey]

Hmmm.. think the only thing I use them for, after I've gotten Cruisers, are as supplyships. They don't really need to be all that fast. But that kind of falls into that Former/Colony Pod category I guess.

[Blake]

I admit I never build foil warships once I have cruisers.

I do however like capturing and upgrading AI foils, so I still design new foils in the workshop.

The only foil I might actually build is the
2-3t-4, clean
or
4-1-4

And then use them as bait I'd much rather lose a lousy cheap foil than a cruiser which costs 5 times as much. I use clean on my "bait" because I like to mantain production - and usually they last for 10 years anyway.

If I'm rich I actually shell out on Cruiser Formers, good as replacments for foil formers which the AI wiped out.

[knowhow2]

people people, haven't we forgot about the probe skimship (I know it has less movement but usually you just use it for probing enemy ships or seabases far away so it doesn't matter). But you could say it's in the same category as former/colony/supply ....

[Christantine The Great]

Since I always use FM I don't really need a unit that moves fast. A foil with a strong weapon is fine for me. Especially since my industry centers arn't usually on the coast when I get Doc:Ini. If you just want to defend yourself then foils are the way to go. (But keep a handful of crusers to chase slower AI foils and knock them out before they get away)

[Skanderbeg]

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 on 03-20-2001 08:19 AM people people, haven't we forgot about the probe skimship (I know it has less movement but usually you just use it for probing enemy ships or seabases far away so it doesn't matter). But you could say it's in the same category as former/colony/supply ....

I always replace the probe skimship by the probe cruiser as soon as possible. For the undefended probe ships fast movement is essential.
For this same reason, the Marine Control Center is high on my prioritiy list, not for the naval yard, not for the two more move points for ships, but for the two more move points for my probe cruisers! With Marine Control Center, and elite probe cruiser has 9 (!) move points and can really come out of the nothing to do succesful probe actions!

[Closey]

quote: With Marine Control Center, and elite probe cruiser has 9 (!) move points and can really come out of the nothing to do succesful probe actions!

And then add a deep pressure hull to that

[knowhow2]

Probe Cruisers with deep pressure hull? Got to be quite expensive. I rather have 3 simple probe skimship for the same price (not sure about the same price part though.. have to check that). With three of them you can afford to lose one and still get 2 probe action. In SP game the AI seems always able to spot your probes, no matter how disguised they are. In MP game Humans have a tendency to kill of your probe anyway so I take 3 for 1 everytime! (still not sure about the prices here but I go look it up and confirm later)

[Skanderbeg]

Another thing to probe ships:
In my last game I made some experiments with armoured probe cruisers.
When I got 8r-armour, that was very succesful. They were not very much more expensive than undefended probe cruisers, but because they were nearly always elite, that had good chances even against an attack of shard weapon.
I could move them even before the nose of the other factions and they were not able to kill them.

[Closey]

quote: Probe Cruisers with deep pressure hull? Got to be quite expensive.

True, but it was late in a MP game, and I had the money. It was fun..

[Garth Vader]

I like probe cruisers with deep radar. They make great scouts.

[Christantine The Great]

Foils I use after Doc:Ini :

Probe Foil: With Deep radar, hypnotic trance, an a resonance-type armor the foils will hold their own aganst mindworms and the occasional scuffle between weaker weapons.

Supply foil: With hypnotic trance will be able to fend off the usual mindworm attack.

Offshore Radar Platform: Deep radar, clean reactor, transport module (for immunity from military disadvantages from FM) and armor (optional if going for cheapness) the ORP will help you keep watch over your coasts when sensor arrays can't get far enough. Might want to keep some near your supply foils to watch out for attacks.

Sea Defense: Best/Best/Clean/Anything. Is used to ward off attacks from the sea. Can do basic transport intercepting. Would be replaced by gravships.

[quote]Originally posted by Christantine The Great on 03-21-2001 06:42 PM
Offshore Radar Platform: Deep radar, clean reactor, transport module ....quote]

Why transport module? why not supply? at least you get FOPs while you're observing.

[Skanderbeg]

quote: Originally posted by It'sLikeThat on 03-21-2001 09:41 PM [quote]Originally posted by Christantine The Great on 03-21-2001 06:42 PM Offshore Radar Platform: Deep radar, clean reactor, transport module ....quote] Why transport module? why not supply? at least you get FOPs while you're observing.

And with supply, You wouldn't need the expensive clean reactor!

[Admiral]

I often use foils as a rushed defense. An unarmored foil is a lot less expesive than a cruiser.
Relative to probe cruisers, If you have the MCC an armored probe cruiser can defend its self against just about any single attack. As the AI is unlikely to mount more than a single attack, I find these quite useful.

------------------
If one ignores negative events, they may simply go away

[Thantos]

I do still use foils after doctrine iniative although when the map geography supports it though. Generally Foils get a nudge over their cruiser equivalants for me when I the war I am prepping for or alternatively actively fighting in requires me to only move a short distance between myself and the target base. For instance the way computer Svengaurd tends to hug my coastline means that I can hit several of his bases from my coastal cities with a Foils movement range. After the war these foils tend to be relegated to either defensive duties or more exposed positions that I feel require a naval pressence but I do not wish to risk a cruiser.

Another common reason for me to create new generations of foils is related to though not completely the same is what I call the thief design. In the post airpower enviroment I frequently find myself using my airforce to take out a bases defenders (until they firm up and start to specialize in effective air defense). During these wars while I tend to start them with as modern a cruiser design as I can manage I frequently find that for a variety of reasons I am unable to maintain enough cruisers to keep up with my air offensives. At that point I start building thieves (basically 1-1-4 shell with or without clean reactors) in frontline frequently recently captured cities with no job in the world other than to occupy sea bases whose defenders have just been eliminated due to the application of air or naval assets. After the war any surving thieves get upgraded typically in support roles for my cruisers.

[Christantine The Great]

Doesn't the cost of a supply module equal the cost of a clean reactor + transport? What if the ORP with a supply module will be stationed on a very deep part of the ocean? Is it worth it?

Plus an ORP can always be used as a transport in a pinch.

[Skanderbeg]

quote: Originally posted by Christantine The Great on 03-24-2001 11:33 PM Doesn't the cost of a supply module equal the cost of a clean reactor + transport?

Yes, but the supplay module pays back this cost, not the clean reactor

quote: What if the ORP with a supply module will be stationed on a very deep part of the ocean? Is it worth it?

Even in deep sea, a trawler can harvest 1 nutrient per turn. Simply said,
it is worth it if it survives long enough.

quote: Plus an ORP can always be used as a transport in a pinch.

True. Perhaps a good idea to build those units for transport purposes and park them as ORP's, when not neede for transport.

[johndmuller]

If you have a base just offshore (perhaps one you took from the AI) a cheap foil transport stationed in the base will allow you to move land units into and/or out of the base without the need for the amphibious attribute.

[Earwicker]

Foil probes and supplies are a design that lasts me well throughout the game, but I don't build a whole lot of attack foils. In the mid-to-later part, I use IOD's for the majority of naval control (capturing bases, shuttling troops). The fungus movement is a huge advantage before Xeno dome. Best for hunting other IOD's and cleaning the seas of tasty pods. But I usually play Dierdre or ChaDawn, so these aren't so hard to come by.

[Ned]

Earwicker, The problem with IOD's is that PSI sea combat is 1:1, and IOD's never get the equivalent of a Fusion Reactor, which by its lonesome, inreases the effectiveness of PSI combat by a factor of two. I find that an IOD simply cannot defeat the lowliest Fusion defender in a city, let alone a Singularity defender. The latter, even without defensive multipliers, has 40 psi hit points vs. the IOD's 10.

So, in contrast, I say, native life forms are truly ineffective in the late game - except, perhaps, when they are defensively located in cities and the defender has the Nural Amplifier.

[big_canuk]

Ned:

Higher reactors do not increase the effectiveness of psi combat. The combat odds display says so, but it's not right(a bug). The "extra" hit points are cancelled by each hit being multiplied by the reactor level. It took me a few games of wondering why my drop fusion troops always lost badly when I used them to clean up mindworm outbreaks.

IODs are the "best" sea unit, when you have the NA. They are the only sea unit that can stand a chance against enemy aircraft.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Indeed, I have noted that native life form do much better than the odds calculator says they should against many units. Does this continue with the lastest patch smax 2.0? (I have not run any odds study recently)

quote: Originally posted by Christantine The Great on 03-24-2001 11:33 PM Doesn't the cost of a supply module equal the cost of a clean reactor + transport? What if the ORP with a supply module will be stationed on a very deep part of the ocean? Is it worth it? Plus an ORP can always be used as a transport in a pinch.

What's an ORP?

[Blake]

quote: IODs are the "best" sea unit, when you have the NA. They are the only sea unit that can stand a chance against enemy aircraft.

This I cannot agree with, mainly because all the attacker needs to do is attack with an empath equiped unit, and there goes the NA bonus, then the attacker also gets planet bonus, and if using 6r the +25 resonance attack, this leaves the attacker with about 1.4 times the power of the IoD, also usually conventional units are generally higher morale, cheaper, and can be "trained". I like to have a few <6r> fighters/choppers around for killing native life outbreaks, another factions native unit gets the same treatment.

A ship with plasma armour and AAA defends 1:1 against missile weapons, and a ship with no weapon is VERY cheap, chances are chaos gun will come before Silksteel, and eventually weapon strength will outstrip armour strength, however if you make it your aim to research armour you can probably have <6> ships while your enemies are still totting the fusionlaser/tachyeon bolt/plasma shard, which the 6 armour breaks even against. Ofcourse following the armour line takes you to Tachyeon bolt anyway, which is a nice weapon, and then your a short hop to Quantum power.

AAA Ships defend better against locusts than IoD's.

So in short my opinion is the IoD's vunerability to being bombarded, and empath units make cruiser transports escorted by AAA cruisers a better choice of transport, the big plus with IoD's is they are often free, and move faster than foils.

[Earwicker]

Keeping IOD's on the offensive, with support of aircraft and the occasional conventional ship, best exploits their power. A faction like Gaians or Cult, playing at Green Cybernetic, holding the Manifold Nexus, gains a tremendous advantage on attack. The odds calculator says +70%, but is is truly conferring such a modifier (or does it max out at +40% or +50% in practice)?

[Christantine The Great]

It'sLikeThat, an ORP is an Offshore Radar Platform. I invented it, of course.
[This message has been edited by Christantine The Great (edited March 27, 2001).]