Our Allies... the Germans

Ming · February 18, 2003, 13:20

I haven't seen this posted yet...

And a special thanks to uggabugga from FFZ for spotting it.

-----------------------------------
Feb. 18, 2003
Germany accused of hiding evidence of smallpox virus arsenals in Iraq
By CORINNA DA FONSECA-WOLLHEIM

The German government suppressed evidence of small pox virus arsenals in Iraq for months, fearing such news could undermine Chancellor Gerhardt Schroeder's re-election campaign, according to a report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

Since his reelection in September, Schroeder has intensified his opposition to a war against Iraq.

On Monday, the newspaper printed a report written by senior officials in the Health Ministry last August citing German intelligence reports that batches of small pox virus were stored in Iraq, as well as in North Korea and in non-government laboratories in Russia.

The report called for the immediate purchase of millions of small pox vaccines and presented estimates that as many as 20 million Germans could die in the event of a biological attack. It also warned that "terror groups are attempting to manufacture biological weapons."

The German Health Ministry confirmed the authenticity of the report to the newspaper but said that its "drastic language" and "exaggerated casualty figures" were designed to push for the allocation of funds for more vaccines.

In November, Health Minister Ulla Schmidt cited parts of the report in a session of the Bundestag's budget committee, but omitted any mention of Iraq or of the possible consequences of an attack.

Publication of the report fueled accusations made in recent weeks by opposition parliament members such as conservative Christian Democratic Union Foreign Policy Spokesman Friedbert Pfl ger and Guido Westerwelle, chairman of the liberal Free Democratic Party, that the government is holding back intelligence reports of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

The German government is currently purchasing 100 million small pox vaccines to top up an existing stock of six million.

In its Tuesday edition, the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung ran a cartoon depicting a group of spotty anti-war demonstrators marching in a cloud of black dots
------------------------------------

But I guess only Bush would use Iraq for political purposes...

DaShi · February 18, 2003, 13:22

He was only trying to save lives from senseless American aggression.

Clear Skies · February 18, 2003, 13:22

Wow. Politicians lie. Like you don't see THAT headline every day...

DaShi · February 18, 2003, 13:23

Ooh, better.

Sava · February 18, 2003, 13:23

It pails in comparison to the weapons the US gave Iraq. Good article nonetheless.

Velociryx · February 18, 2003, 13:23

WhoooHooooo! You GO Germany!

PS: Doesn't something like that count as a WOMD?

You know, the kind we need proof of them having?

Richelieu · February 18, 2003, 13:24

Hmmmmm.

The French have to be responsible somehow.

Boris Godunov · February 18, 2003, 13:33

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...02_1_A,00.html

"Even before the paper hit the stands on Sunday, Schily was working to calm the possible worries the story could cause. In a television interview on Saturday evening, Schily denied that the government was keeping any information about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction secret. In addition, he said the government only had known for a long time that Iraq had experimented with the camel small-pox virus. Such a virus is harmless to humans, a Health Ministry official said.

Ministry responds to story

The Health Ministry later provided an explanation about the document mentioned by the paper itself. It said the information was provided to the Finance Ministry in an effort to gain support for Schmidt's effort to expand the country's vaccine supply. The document was written by medical experts, not intelligence experts, the ministry said. "As a result, any judgment about the risks associated with the small-pox virus is drastic and imprecise," said a ministry spokesman, Klaus Vater."

Sava · February 18, 2003, 13:35

so this means what Boris? spell it out for me and my fellow retards!

Ming · February 18, 2003, 13:36

Quote:

The German government is currently purchasing 100 million small pox vaccines to top up an existing stock of six million

Yeah... they really thinks it's "harmless"...
In the US, we call stories like that "spin control"...
or what to do when you get caught with your pants down...

DaShi · February 18, 2003, 13:36

Yeah, if it's not clearly ant-american, we don't know whether to believe it or not.

Oerdin · February 18, 2003, 13:37

It just shows that Shcoeder has been dishonest from the beginning.

Ming · February 18, 2003, 13:39

While our Euro friends feel justified in questioning Bush's motivation... It's only fair we do the same with our friends across the pond

Monk · February 18, 2003, 13:39

Ming, your closing statement implies that somebody has actually made the claim?

It should be fairly obvious that the opposition to the war was Schröder's only hope for re-election in 2002. Additionally, Die Grünen would probably have to leave the government in case of German approval or Fischer would have lost face once more, diverging from the fundamental green value of pacifism.

Ming · February 18, 2003, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Monk
Ming, your closing statement implies that somebody has actually made the claim?

It should be fairly obvious that the opposition to the war was Schröder's only hope for re-election in 2002.

Uhhh... you prove my point... He is using an anti-war in Iraq stance for political reasons, even though his own government had the "smoking gun" that they keep asking for... thanks

Sava · February 18, 2003, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
While our Euro friends feel justified in questioning Bush's motivation... It's only fair we do the same with our friends across the pond

Yeah, it's not as if we don't have enough pissing contests going on across the world

SpencerH · February 18, 2003, 13:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,336...02_1_A,00.html

"Even before the paper hit the stands on Sunday, Schily was working to calm the possible worries the story could cause. In a television interview on Saturday evening, Schily denied that the government was keeping any information about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction secret. In addition, he said the government only had known for a long time that Iraq had experimented with the camel small-pox virus. Such a virus is harmless to humans, a Health Ministry official said.

The source may be a little in doubt http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...6/151752.shtml but heres the importance of camel pox

"One of the world’s leading authorities on biological weapons, the former head of Soviet biowarfare, warns that a smallpox release by Iraq could cause a worldwide calamity of biblical proportions.
In an exclusive interview with NewsMax’s Carl Limbacher, as part of NewsMax’s Off the Record Club (click here for more details), Dr. Ken Alibek said he had little doubt that Iraq has smallpox.

And Dr. Alibek said he had no doubt Saddam would unleash the lethal virus upon his enemies, including the United States, if he believes his regime will fall.

Alibek says that the development of such bioweapons as smallpox is not complicated and "doesn’t require much equipment or sophisticated knowledge with sophisticated deployment techniques for deploying.”

Alibek also reveals in "Off the Record” that Saddam’s work on camel pox, a sister virus to smallpox, is a very clear indication that Saddam likely has smallpox.

"Camel pox is a virus which is very close to a smallpox virus,” Alibek explained.

"It’s very hard to believe that Saddam Hussein was interested in camel pox virus just because he wanted to protect his camels from this pox viral infection.”

Alibek insists Saddam's scientists have used camel pox for modeling work for the smallpox virus.

Alibek said: "If you do such work, you can get some knowledge how to grow this virus, how to concentrate it, how to dry this virus if it’s necessary, and in this case, if you do such work and use camel pox as a modeling virus, it would be possible, after you finish this work, to know what can be done with smallpox virus.” "

Quote:

Ministry responds to story

The Health Ministry later provided an explanation about the document mentioned by the paper itself. It said the information was provided to the Finance Ministry in an effort to gain support for Schmidt's effort to expand the country's vaccine supply. The document was written by medical experts, not intelligence experts, the ministry said. "As a result, any judgment about the risks associated with the small-pox virus is drastic and imprecise," said a ministry spokesman, Klaus Vater."

There are few living experts on smallpox but the German minister thinks intelligence 'experts' would be better than medical ones.

Talk about spin.

Japher · February 18, 2003, 13:50

Freakin' Germans... Causing another conspiracy...

Things are getting pretty edgy, but I wouldn't believe anything they say anymore and demand their support. If they don't give it oh well.

If they knew this, and didn't share, I wonder whatelse they have and are hidding. Maybe they kno of other chemicals or WOMD. Maybe the only reason this story came out is because they wouldn't be able to prepare, or get the vaccination, on the hush hush and the QT. Thus, they had to 'leak' it. Maybe they know of other weapons that he has, but aren't going to admit because they just can't prepare for it.

Why, though, would they keep it secret? Politics? I don't think so, not totally. There has to be some other motive behind this backstabbing.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer... huh.

Monk · February 18, 2003, 13:53

Oh, you're saying Schröder accused Bush of the same crime he's commiting himself. I thought you were referring to some general opinion that Bush was the only one around whose every actions aren't driven by idealism.

Ming · February 18, 2003, 13:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Monk
Oh, you're saying Schröder accused Bush of the same crime he's commiting himself.

Not him directly... just many of the posters here who seem to think that Bush is the only politican in the world that has a different agenda than the one he puts to the press.

While I don't agree with Bush on MANY issues... and have never posted any comments in support of the potential war, I do get a little tired of the constant America bashing... Not that we don't deserve it, but the holier than thou attitude is what bugs me. EVERY GOVERNMENT has it's own agenda... and they aren't all pure and goodness like some people would like others to believe.

So it was kind of fun to lob something back in the other direction for a change

Monk · February 18, 2003, 13:59

I won't defend anybody in any way assuming the F.A.Z is correct, and I don't really care for the man anyway. Only thing is, assuming this is the smoking gun being delivered on a silver plate, why does nobody seem to notice?

On an entirely different note, if this actually is the case - as some of you seem to think -, I'd say Schröder is correct in opposing the war, possibly saving the mentioned 20.000.000 German lives.

Boris Godunov · February 18, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH

The source may be a little in doubt http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...6/151752.shtml but heres the importance of camel pox

"One of the world’s leading authorities on biological weapons, the former head of Soviet biowarfare, warns that a smallpox release by Iraq could cause a worldwide calamity of biblical proportions.
In an exclusive interview with NewsMax’s Carl Limbacher, as part of NewsMax’s Off the Record Club (click here for more details), Dr. Ken Alibek said he had little doubt that Iraq has smallpox.

And Dr. Alibek said he had no doubt Saddam would unleash the lethal virus upon his enemies, including the United States, if he believes his regime will fall.

Alibek says that the development of such bioweapons as smallpox is not complicated and "doesn’t require much equipment or sophisticated knowledge with sophisticated deployment techniques for deploying.”

Alibek also reveals in "Off the Record” that Saddam’s work on camel pox, a sister virus to smallpox, is a very clear indication that Saddam likely has smallpox.

"Camel pox is a virus which is very close to a smallpox virus,” Alibek explained.

"It’s very hard to believe that Saddam Hussein was interested in camel pox virus just because he wanted to protect his camels from this pox viral infection.”

Alibek insists Saddam's scientists have used camel pox for modeling work for the smallpox virus.

Alibek said: "If you do such work, you can get some knowledge how to grow this virus, how to concentrate it, how to dry this virus if it’s necessary, and in this case, if you do such work and use camel pox as a modeling virus, it would be possible, after you finish this work, to know what can be done with smallpox virus.” "

That's nice, but still doesn't change the fact that, if this is true, then there is no "smoking gun" for Saddam having the human small pox virus. Whatever his reasons are for having camel small pox, his having it isn't proof of anything other than him having camel small pox.

Quote:

There are few living experts on smallpox but the German minister thinks intelligence 'experts' would be better than medical ones.

Talk about spin.

How would medical experts be better at determining if Saddam possesses something rather than intelligence experts?

The Mad Monk · February 18, 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Hmmmmm.

The French have to be responsible somehow.

Now, now, they can't hog all the credit!

Ming · February 18, 2003, 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Whatever his reasons are for having camel small pox,

And please explain a legitimate reason for having it.

Yeah... he wants to protect his camels...

Japher · February 18, 2003, 14:07

Save The Camels!

Now, at least that's something to protest about.

DuncanK · February 18, 2003, 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Monk
Only thing is, assuming this is the smoking gun being delivered on a silver plate, why does nobody seem to notice?

That's easy. Unlike the bulk of you Euros, we Americans aren't suprized by a smoking gun. It's more than obvious that he is producing and keeping WoD. All this BS about a smoking gun is to convince you blind Euros.

Demerzel · February 18, 2003, 14:09

I got double vision from these facts leading to a double post!

Demerzel · February 18, 2003, 14:09

Oh my God - I can see! Hallelujah!

Man bites dog. What's new?

SpencerH · February 18, 2003, 14:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

How would medical experts be better at determining if Saddam possesses something rather than intelligence experts?

I read that as risks associated with a use of smallpox not whether he has it.

Monk · February 18, 2003, 14:13

Not him directly... just many of the posters here who seem to think that Bush is the only politican in the world that has a different agenda than the one he puts to the press.

Who are these many posters?

I do get a little tired of the constant America bashing...

Well, you know pretty well that we're not talking about a one-way street here. An equal or almost equal amount of unsubstantial garbage is being thrown against the supposed Eurocoms and their constant whining.

I don't even have a European identity as such so I don't take it personally. But I feel the exact same way as you in the sense that the constant trolling is amazingly boring in the long run and it really lowers the level of discussion. And so I have to say I think it's disappointing that a good moderator who is actually very capable of making a point surrenders to the urge to "lob something back in the other direction" which sounds likes we're in a fight or something.