Orders for turnchat 2256-2263, 2200 GMT Saturday

[GeneralTacticus]

The chat will be held on the apolyton server at 2200GMT on Saturday. If posible, please try to turn up early; the earlier we can start, the quicker we will finish.

[Cedayon]

Preliminary Orders for Akiria, 2256-

Requests to the DIA
Rush requests as follows:
Requested immediately (in order of priority):
- Network Node in Twin Peaks in 1 turn with 10 mins over for 62ec
- Network Node in Cyclops in 1 turn with 10 mins over for 42ec
Requested in one turn (on 2257):
- Network Node in Espirito del Aqua in 1 turn with 10 mins over (whatever it takes )

edit - I also have two Sea formers (foil chassis) that I want upgraded to Super, not sure what it'd cost. Not much, though.

Build Queues

Aurora and New Tassagrad are to commence Operation WholeMessOCrawlers (described at the bottom of this post, like it was in the Akiria thread)

Twin Peaks
Current Project: Network Node (to be rushed, as requested above)
Queue (changed):
Rec Commons (I'd like to do a little rushing on this one)
Supply Crawler
Plasma Sentinels (1-3-1, Fission, you may add trance OR ECM if you want to)
Supply Crawler
Hybrid Forest

Cyclops
Current Project: Network Node (to be rushed, as requested above)
Queue (changed):
Rec Commons (I'd like to do a little rushing on this one)
Supply Crawler
Plasma Sentinels (1-3-1, Fission, you may add trance OR ECM if you want to)
Supply Crawler
Plasma Sentinels (as above)
Supply Crawler

Espirito del Aqua
Current Project: Children's Creche (change, immediately, to Network Node, and rush after 1 turn as requested above).
Queue (changed):
Recreation Commons
Children's Creche
Research Hospital

Crawlers
Aurora and New Tassagrad crawlers have many orders for the Operation, but that's it.

Formers

(orders for the former group near New Tassagrad are given in the Operation)

Zanarkand Gate Former (7,119) S W of Cyclops, no orders
- move E to (9,119) and build a sensor array
- return to control of the Aurillion authorities

The group (#1) at (6,118) W SE of Cyclops:
Aurora Former, no orders
New Tassagrad Former, no orders
Cyclops Former, no orders
- Build farm, then soil enricher
- move NE N to (7,115, fungus square), remove fungus, build road, then plant forest
- move E E to (11,115, fungus square), remove fungus, build road, then plant forest, then build sensor array
- move SW S E to (12,118, fungus square), remove fungus, build road, then plant forest
- move W N N NE NE to (12,112), plant forest, then build sensor array
- move NW NE E NE to (15,109), build sensor array

New Apolyton Former at (26,114) SE SE SE of Twin Peaks, no orders
- build farm (replace the forest!), soil enricher, and condensor
- move W to (24,114), build sensor array
- move W NW to (21,113), build sensor array

Aurora Sea Former at (18,106) NW of Aurora, no orders (already moved)
- Move NW to (17,105), build mining platform and kelp farm
- Move NE to (18,104), build mining platform and kelp farm
- Move NE to (19,103), build mining platform
- Move NW to (18,102), build tidal harness and kelp farm
- Move SW to (17,103), build tidal harness and kelp farm
- Move W to (15,103), build tidal harness and kelp farm

Espirito del Aqua Sea Former at (16,104) S of EdA, no orders (already moved)
- Upgrade to Super Fusion Sea former (new design may be necessary)
- Join Aurora Sea Former (orders just above)

New Tassagrad Sea Former at (13,103) W SW of EdA, building Tidal Harness
- Cancel current orders, and Upgrade to Super Fusion Sea former (new design may be necessary)
- Build Tidal Harness
- Join the other two Akirian Sea Formers (orders above)

Workers

(New Tassagrad worker orders are given in the Operation)

Twin Peaks
- Put one of the Empaths to work on a forest square, the Network node (to be rushed) will take care of the drone problem.
- After the Node is done, check if the other Empath can be put to work too.

Cyclops
- Switch the worker on the farm/solar square (N NW of the base) to a forest square
- After the Network Node is done, check if the Empath can be put to work.

Espirito del Aqua
- Move the worker E SE of the base to the harness square E NE of the base
- Put one of the Empaths to work on the harness square S of the base
- Make sure the harness square SW SW of the base remains clear for New Tassagrad to work.

New Workers
- Just put 'em somewhere reasonable (possibly specialist duty if it's called for), or ask me 'cause I'll be in the turnchat this time


Operation WholeMessOCrawlers

Turn 1 ('56)

New Tassagrad:
-Change production from Xenoempathy Dome to Fusion Speeder Supply (accept min loss)
-Change Queue to FSS, FSS, FSS, FSS, Xenoempathy Dome, Needlejet (pick the model), Hybrid Forest
-Move the worker on the farm/solars just S of the base to the kelp farm/harness square (N NE of base)
-Change the crawler at (9,105) (W W N of base) from nutrient crawling to mineral crawling.
-Change the crawler at (12,108) (SW of base) from nutrient crawling to mineral crawling.
-Move the crawler at (11,113) (S S S W of base) to (11,111) (N from there) and crawl minerals.

Aurora:
-Change production from Research Hospital to Fusion Speeder Supply (accept min loss)
-Change Queue to FSS, FSS, Needlejet (pick the model), Hybrid Forest
-Please use ec's to fill in the 3 or so mins to make sure the FSS finishes in 1 turn (no need to do overrun, since Aurora will have 15 min production and thus produce an FSS in exactly 2 turns anyway).

Where to put the crawlers (always displace workers, preferably to forest, use discretion if no forest is available):
New Tassagrad:
#1: move S SE to the mine square and crawl minerals
#2: move SE and crawl minerals
#3: move NW and crawl minerals
#4: move S and crawl minerals
#5: move out (along a road) and immediately back in to be cashed in for the XD.

Aurora:
#1: move SW to the nut bonus square and crawl nuts
#2: move S and crawl minerals
#3: move to NT to cash in for the XD.

What to do with the 5-former group that starts S SE of New Tassagrad:
Send 1 (The Tacticus Academy Former) to the condensor square NW NW of New Tassagrad to add a soil enricher, when it's done I return it to control of the Centralis Governor.
Send 2 to the farm/solar square S of New Tassagrad to replace the current stuff with forest
Send 2 to the farm/solar square S SW of New Tassagrad to replace the current stuff with forest
(I have other tasks for the last 4 formers, but they are irrelevant to the plan)

Turn 6 ('61)
New Tassagrad should be building the Xenoempathy Dome now, probably with 10 mins leftover from the last crawler. (10/300)
-Cash in the two newly built FSS's (1 from NT, 1 from Aurora) (70/300)
-Cash in the FSS that's S of NT (100/300)
-Cash in the FSS that's SE of NT (130/300)
-Cash in the FSS that's NW of NT (160/300)
-Cash in the normal crawler that's SW of NT (190/300)
-Cash in the normal crawler at (11,111) (S S W of NT) (220/300)
-Cash in the FSS that's SW of Aurora (250/300)
-Cash in the FSS that's S of Aurora (280/300)
NT's mineral production should be enough to fill in the rest and finish the Dome by the next turn ('62)

Turn 7 ('62)
*ding* Project's done!

[Cedayon]

I'll be at home this weekend, so I'll be in the turnchat... and I'll be there hours ahead of time, for starting-early purposes

[Method]

if you're thinking of getting op status, perish the thought

i'll look at your orders when i have more time

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by TKG
if you're thinking of getting op status, perish the thought

I wouldn't know how to use it ... my first use of IRC was that turnchat some 3 weeks ago, and I haven't had practice at this $&@#(*&%@^%*@$#&@&%*$@&%*($# port-blocking university

i'll look at your orders when i have more time

All the requests (3 rushes, 2 upgrades) are at the top... though I'm likely to ask for a few small rushes during the turnchat, just to speed things up.

edit- one more thing about my orders you might care about: I'm returning that Zanarkand Gate former south of Cyclops to your control, after it puts up a Sensor array (I could skip that too, if you really need that).

[Method]

i thought i stole it back last chat?

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by TKG
i thought i stole it back last chat?

You took two of them back, but there's still one down there, apparently doing work for me

[Method]

really? i thought i got them all
/me snaps his fingers in disappointment

[Maniac]

Jedinica Vrijstaat order, MY 2256 onwards

Requests to the DIA

Could you please design a 0-1-1 super clean once we research Bioengineering?
Could you please design a 0-1-6*2 super clean cruiser former once we research Bioengineering?
Rush requests:
(The Concordian rush is high priority, the others less.)
Concordia hybrid forest in MY 2257: 388 ec
Pandemonium fusion lab: 172 ec
Terminal Dogma fusion lab: 24 ec
Total: 584 ec
I'd prefer the Terminal Dogmatic hybrid forest, which should already have been constructed, hurried too, but whatever...

Build queues

As Hercules didn't post his full list of desires for a Hive invasion, I did not put military units in the queues.

Concordia (whole queue including first item changes)
hybrid forest !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
biology lab
aerospace complex
sky hydroponis lab
centauri preserve


Pandemonium (third and fourth queue item are added)
fusion lab
centauri preserve
hybrid forest
aerospace complex

Sheathed Sword (fifth and sixth item added)
0-1-6*2 super fusion cruiser former
research hospital
fusion lab
centauri preserve
hybrid forest
aerospace complex

Terminal Dogma (whole queue changes)
fusion lab
hybrid forest !!!!!!!!!!!!!
supply speeder
centauri preserve
sky hydroponics lab

Valhalla
0-1-2*2 super former
0-3-5*2 transport with deep radar
aerospace complex
fusion probe foil
fusion probe foil
super clean 0-1-1 formers until end of turnchat

Worker allocations

Sheathed Sword and Terminal Dogma
Change that one worker on a sea square into an engineer in each base.

Supply crawlers

Concordian trance supply (6.86) NW-NW of Tacticus Academy, convoying nutrients
-move to (16.66) W of TeDo
-convoy minerals

Terminal Dogmatic supply speeder under construction
-move to Sheathed Sword
-rehome to ShSw
-move to (16.62)
-convoy minerals

Formers

Instead of giving former orders, I'll just give a list of what terraformation I would want in the end, as the list of detailed former orders would become too long now they can perform double the work as before. Please tell me if you want the other order format after all. If you want me to make a picture with this list put into symbols on a map of Jedinica, I'll do so.

All sea tiles: kelp farm, tidal harness
(12.60) N of ShSw: road, borehole
(11.63) SW of ShSw: road, condenser, soil enricher
(12.64) S of ShSw: road, borehole
(11.67) NW of Pan: road, condenser, soil enricher
(11.69) SW of Pan: road, condenser, soil enricher
(16.66) W of TeDo: road, mine
(14.68) E of Pande: road, mine
(19.67) SE of TeDo: road, condenser, soil enricher
(22.68) E-E-S of TeDo: road, condenser, soil enricher
(21.69) SE-SE-SE of TeDo: road, condenser, soil enricher
(16.74) SW of Val: road, condenser, soil enricher
(10.74) NW of Con: road, condenser, soil enricher
(9.75) W of Con: road, soil enricher, echelon mirror
(10.76) SW of Con: road, soil enricher, solar collector
(8.76) W-SW of Con: road, soil enricher, solar collector
(9.77) SW-SW of Con: forest
(7.75), (6.76), (7.77), (8.78): road, condenser, soil enricher

I hope that will suffice.

Thanks.

[Voltaire]

Twin Sea Preliminary Orders MY 2256-2263

Build Queues

Crystalis
-place recreation commons at the top of the queue
-rush recreation commons

Mysidia (add to existing queue)
-reallocate specialist citizens back to workers on available sea tiles
Fusion Speeder Supply Crawler
Fusion Speeder Supply Crawler
Hybrid Forest
Aerospace Complex

New Suez (no change)

U.N. Research Complex (no change)

Transcendence Academy (add to existing queue)
Biology Lab
Fusion Speeder Supply Crawler

Heaven’s Gate (no change)

Crawlers

Any newly constructed crawlers are to move to unoccupied forest locations and are to convoy minerals.

Formers

Move formers to squares not already containing forests, and remove fungus (if necessary), plant forests & build roads; except in rocky areas, in which case construct mines and build roads.

[Voltaire]

Directory of Foreign Affairs Orders MY 2256-2263

Not many pressing decisions to make, though follow these general guidelines in regards to foreign affairs:

1) Always accept the incoming transmission from another faction;
2) If a faction that we are currently at war with demands technology, laugh in their face;
3) If a faction that we are currently at was with demands energy credits, laugh in their face, unless of course it is a reasonable amount (meaning anything below 100ec); &
4) Attempt to pass the Global Trade Pact in the UN, if necessary bribe someone to change their vote in our favour (but only if their request is reasonable).

[Voltaire]

Ok orders done. I will attempt to make it to the turnchat on Saturday, though most likely if I do make it I’ll be about an hour late (I have model UN Sat and Sun, and I’m the ambassador for China ).

[Method]

THIS TIME, DO NOT IGNORE FORMER ORDERS. THEY'RE VERY IMPORTANT!!!

Aurillian Orders

Build Queues
UNPD
Fusion Lab
Clean Super Fusion Formers (0-1-2*2 clean, super)

DEM
Fusion lab
Clean Super Fusion Formers

Zan Gate
Fusion Lab
Rec Commons (dammit, DBTS!)
Clean Super Fusion Formers

Xanadu
RUSH FORMERS AFTER 10 MINERALS. DO. NOT. FORGET
RUSH FORMERS AFTER 10 MINERALS.
Network Node

Formers
UNPD former at 11,95
-move to 15,93
-road
-borehole
-move to 13,91
-road
-borehole

UNPD former inside Zanarkand gate.
-move to 15,93
-borehole
-move to 13,91
-road
-borehole

UNPD former in eastern Twin Sea.
-cancel orders
-move to UNPD DO NOT FORGET

UNPD former south of zanarkand gate
-finish current borehole
-move to 15,93
-borehole
-move to 13,91
-road
-borehole

UNPD Sea former west of Suez
-transfer control to Twin Sea (support it in Suez. if voltaire doesn't want it, disband it, neither do i)

ZG former SW of cyclops
-move to 5,115
-borehole
-move to 7,111
-borehole

ZG formers(both of them) south of ZG
-move to 8,102
-lower terrain
-borehole

BOTH DEM formers heading to 5,115
-cancel orders
-move to 6,104
-road
-lower terrain
-borehole

DEM former north of cyclops
-move to 6,104
-road
-lower terrain
-borehole

DEM formers south of Xanadu
-road
-move to 3,99
-clear fungus
-borehole
-move to 4,100
-forest

Xanadu Former moving to 5,115
-move to 5,115
-borehole

IF A FORMER IS DONE THESE ORDERS, DO NOT SEND THEM TO WORK AT ANOTHER BASE. USE YOUR JUDGEMENT, AND HAVE THEM IMPROVE THEIR HOME BASE

Crawlers
10,92 UNPD crawler
-i don't care what you do, just get rid of it. use it to rush a project, perhaps.

14,96 trawler
-send to 20,104 and trawl nutrients (if cedayon doesn't mind. oh wait, i'm still DIA )

11,103 crawler
-use to hurry Xeno Dome

2,102 DEM crawler
-use to hurry Xeno Dome in NT

Nearest Xanadu Crawler
-crawl condensor on top of large hill

Workers
UNPD:
-move that unproductive farm worker to a forest

DEM:
-change the 2-1-2 worket to a forest
-change a 3-1-2 worker to the borehole (upon which there is a crawler crawling NUTRIENTS )

UNMI:
-WORK ONLY 4-0-4 TILES

[Method]

by the way: this is where there should be boreholes either completed, started, or about to be started by the end of the chat, if you followed the orders right (i think)

it also shows which crawlers i'm donating to Cedayon

one more thing: E NE of UNPD where i'm building a borehole is currently worked by NA. can you send your worker to another forest, for your good buddy TKG?

[Cedayon]

I ok TKG's trawling of 20,104 (N NE of Aurora), if it matters.

And you don't have to send me those crawlers, I'll still have enough after the insta-building of XD because I'm essentially spending 5 turns on nothing but crawlers with NT and Aurora. If you really need to off-load some crawlers, I'm sure Solaris could use them... or you could send them to JV to help in the insta-building of the Supercollider when we get AR

[GeneralTacticus]

PRELIMINARY ORDERS AS OF MY 2249:

Build Queue Orders:

Tacticus Academy:
When Bio-Engineering is done, insert Longevity Vaccine at end of build queue (if queue finishes before tech, insert placeholder)

Antioch:
Insert Hybrid Forest at end of build queue.

Egregion:
Insert former at start of build queue.
Insert former into queue after Children’s Creche.

Worker Placement Orders:
None.

Crawler Orders:
Move 13,82 crawler 1 tile NE & keep crawling minerals.

Former Orders:
Tacticus Academy former (9,83), WW of Antioch, move to 7,85.
- Stop.
- Build soil enricher.
- When done, continue building soil enricher son every farm square in the region.

Tacticus Academy former (9,83), WW of Antioch, move to 7,85.
- Build soil enricher.
- When done, continue building soil enricher son every farm square in the region.

Antioch former (7,85), NNW of Antioch, no orders.
- Build soil enricher.
- When done, continue building soil enrichers on every farm square in the region.

ThisBaseIsBelongToUs former (9,83), WW of Antioch, move to 7,85.
- Stop.
- Build soil enricher.
- When done, continue building soil enricher son every farm square in the region.

ThisBaseIsBelongToUs former (14,86), SW of TBIBTU, no orders.
- Drill borehole.
- When done, move to 10,90 & drill borehole (if substantially leading in poll)

New Apolyton former former[/I] (14,86), SW of TBIBTU, no orders.
- Drill borehole.
- When done, move to 10,90 & drill borehole (if substantially leading in poll)


ThisBaseIsBelongToUs former (10,80), N of Antioch, plant forest.
- Continue current project.
- Move NE, build road, then forest. Next move back and build soil enrichers on every condenser square in Centralis.

Rush Requests:

Now:
Biology Lab in NA for 56 ECs (optimal price)
Fusion Lab in TBIBTU for 58 ECs (optimal pricing)
Sky Hydroponics Lab in TA for 180 ECs (optimal pricing)
Rec Tanks in Egregion for 28 ECs.
Sea formers in Circular Quay for 41 ECs.

2257:
Centauri Preserve in Antioch for ~120 ECs

2260:
Centauri Preserve in NA for ~90 ECs.

Total: ~563 ECs.

[Maniac]

TKG, what's the esteemed total of your rush requests?

[Cedayon]

Who's doing orders for Solaris this time?

*thinks he knows the answer*

[Maniac]

/me suddenly thinks of something...
TKG, have you polled those Aurillian borehole orders?
GT, have you polled whether or not to build that SP in one of your bases?
If not, I fear those orders are unconstitutional.

[Method]

Originally posted by Maniac
TKG, what's the esteemed total of your rush requests?

not sure. i'll get back to you

Originally posted by Maniac
* Maniac suddenly thinks of something...
TKG, have you polled those Aurillian borehole orders?
If not, I fear those orders are unconstitutional.

they are?

[Maniac]

Well I'm sorry I only think of this so late. I don't want to be a pain in the ass. But I have to perform my AT job well (certainly with the elections approaching ).

[Cedayon]

I was wondering about that... I see lots (edit: 2) of Aurillion boreholes in the save, but no polls for them... I thought I had just missed something.

Amazingly enough, the eco-people didn't raise a peep about it.

What's your secret, TKG?

[Method]

aha! this is included in the new amendment, but it doesn't end until sunday. can't you just let it slip this time? pleeeease?

as for keeping green-peace off my back...well let's just it involves bribes*cough*guhmtelfitrickbers*cough*my henchmen erm, nevermind...

[Cedayon]

I went ahead and did them... If someone else already has Solaris taken care of and I just missed it, ignore this post.

Feel free to pick these apart and change whatever, anyone, as I don't have authority here.

Possible Orders for Solaris 2256-

Requests to the DIA
Rush requests as follows:
Requested immediately (in order of priority):
- Network Node in Shangri-La in 1 turn with 10 mins over for 144ec
- Children's Creche in Metropolis in 1 turn with 10 mins over for 6ec (I just want the overrun)
Requested in one turn (on 2257):
- Network Node in Ankh-Morpork in 1 turn with 10 mins over (whatever it takes )

Upgrade requests: 2 land formers upgraded to super formers, will probably cost 120ec in total

Requests for Sanity
Capricorn and UNXB are currently supporting so many units that they are either producing stuff at a crawl (Capricorn has +1 mins) or completely shut down (UNXB is at 0). Please do something about this, possibly rehoming some of those noodles to Metro or elsewhere.

Build Queues

Ankh-Morpork
Current Project: FSS (change to network node and rush after 1 turn)
Queue (changed):
Supply Crawler
Rec Commons
Supply Crawler
Supply Crawler

Shangri-La
Current Project: Children's Creche (change to network node, accept 4 min loss, and rush)
Queue (changed):
Supply Crawler
Children's Creche
Former
Rec Commons
Supply Crawler

Metropolis
Current Project: Children's Creche (chuck in a few ec's to get a head start on the next thing)
Queue (changed):
Former
Network Node
Supply Crawler
Rec Commons
Supply Crawler

Capricorn
Current Project: Recreation Commons
Queue (changed):
Supply Crawler
Network Node
Supply Crawler
Children's Creche
Supply Crawler

U.N. Aquaxenobanana
Current Project: Children's Creche (change to Network Node)
Queue (changed):
Sea Former
Children's Creche
Sea Trawler
Rec Commons
Sea Trawler

Crawlers

Just pick good spots when the crawlers come on-line. Just go for squares that only have significant amounts of 1 resource (ie condensor farms and rocky mines)

Formers

3 former group just SE of A-M
- upgrade the non-super former to a super former
- plant forest
- move to (16,56) (SE), build farm, soil enricher, and condensor
- move to (18,56) (E), plant forest
- move to (17,57) (SW), build farm, soil enricher, and condensor
- move to (17,55) (N), build road, plant forest
- move to (16,54) (NW), build road, plant forest
- move to (17,53) (NE), build road, plant forest

2 former group SW SW of Capricorn
- upgrade the non-super former to a super former
- build road, plant forest
- move to (24,62) (SE), build road, farm, soil enricher, and condensor
- move to (24,60) (N into fungus), remove fungus, build road, plant forest
- move to (26,60) (E into fungus), remove fungus, build road, plant forest
- move to (25,61) (SW into fungus), remove fungus, build road, plant forest

Newly built former should go to nearby former groups. Except a Metro former, perhaps, which should improve Metro's squares.

Workers

No need for changes, at least until some of those terraforming orders get done, then you might want to switch people to forests (or condensor farms if the crawlers aren't available yet).

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by TKG
aha! this is included in the new amendment, but it doesn't end until sunday. can't you just let it slip this time? pleeeease?

as for keeping green-peace off my back...well let's just it involves bribes*cough*guhmtelfitrickbers*cough*my henchmen erm, nevermind...

Well, I guess I could have a sudden case of not-noticing-the-massive-hole-in-the-ground-3-squares-from-New-Tassagrad if you were to "consider" my rush requests

[Method]

Originally posted by Cedayon
And you don't have to send me those crawlers, I'll still have enough after the insta-building of XD because I'm essentially spending 5 turns on nothing but crawlers with NT and Aurora. If you really need to off-load some crawlers, I'm sure Solaris could use them... or you could send them to JV to help in the insta-building of the Supercollider when we get AR

right, if you dont need them, i think voltaire's doing an SP. we can send one to Suez and 2 to solaris then?

EDIT: actually, the secret to keeping the eco-people at bay is to send them to "inspect" the inside of the boreholes

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by TKG
right, if you dont need them, i think voltaire's doing an SP. we can send one to Suez and 2 to solaris then?

New Suez will finish the Maritime Control Center in 4 turns unassisted, I think that's fast enough. Solaris needs it more, if you're willing.

EDIT: actually, the secret to keeping the eco-people at bay is to send them to "inspect" the inside of the boreholes

Brilliant!

[Method]

Originally posted by Cedayon
New Suez will finish the Maritime Control Center in 4 turns unassisted, I think that's fast enough. Solaris needs it more, if you're willing.

/me shrugs
i don't care. i just don't need them anymore

[Maniac]

Originally posted by TKG
aha! this is included in the new amendment, but it doesn't end until sunday. can't you just let it slip this time? pleeeease?

You're quite right. It's never mentioned directly in the constitution right now you HAVE to poll borehole constructions. Only indirectly in GT's amendment about poll rules. The "you must poll boreholes" routine has simply been unofficial practice since the Big Huge General Terraformation Poll For Term Three (or whatever the title was again... ).

[Cedayon]

Btw, I edited my Akiria orders to fill out the build queues (there were going to be more military units, but I've gotten nothing from Herc).