The Sunflower Dilemma - Could you forgive? - Page 4

Boris Godunov · February 20, 2003, 22:52

And with that, we declare and end to recriminations against other posters, preaching, over indignation, oversimplification, etc. in this thread.

Thanks.

Zylka · February 20, 2003, 23:00

Ooooh my

Definitely a 500 locked thread. Yet in how long?

loinburger · February 20, 2003, 23:04

Personally, I'd've probably kicked him in the nuts and/or berated him up down left and right, and then asked him if he was still repentant. If he was, then I'd've forgiven him.

The mother is a different matter entirely. If Karl still repented after I kicked him in the nuts, then I'd've likely told his mother the whole story. Presumably, after information about Nazi atrocities reached her ears, she would assume that Karl had taken part in them (or at the very least would have fears to this end). Better to tell her right off the bat that yes, her son was a monster, but he was nevertheless a repentant monster. Better that she know the level of her son's involvement (as well as her son's repentance) than to let her invent her own (perhaps better, perhaps worse) theories about her son's involvement.

Zylka · February 20, 2003, 23:06

What if you told him, "Your faith in Jesus alone will determine whether you're sent to the fires with the bush and the weeds"?

Zero · February 20, 2003, 23:14

If I was at mother's situation, I'd rather know that the son has commited atrocity but later learned that he wanted to undo things rather than know that the son only peeled potatos but wishing to kill Jews everytime he went to bed.

So I guess I'm saying that for me, actions dont necessraily define the sense of good person. Although your actions cant be entirely discredited just because you have good intentions, but I'd rather choose first son over the later one anyday.

Urban Ranger · February 20, 2003, 23:46

Most of you probably have heard of the Nanjing Massacre.

A number of old IJA soldiers who had taken part in the atrocity was later overcame by an enormous grief. They completely renounced the actions of the IJA and their own. They are going around Japan to give accounts of their stories, facing accusations and even lawsuits from the rightwingers.

There is an old Chinese saying, "One can become a buddha on the spot by putting down the butcher knife."

So I would have forgiven Karl.

Straybow · February 20, 2003, 23:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
forgiving is not punishing someone who has committed a crime

There is a difference between vengeance and justice. Forgiveness is not seeking retribution for one's own emotional satisfaction. Forgiveness is not the same as abandoning justice.

The soldier's appointment with ultimate justice is not the issue. Nor is earthly justice the issue, given his imminant death. He is compelled by his conscience to speak, and not merely to some sympathetic nurse who will say, "There, there, trouble yourself no more."

I can understand if he couldn't speak some easy words of absolution, but it would be better to say something meaningless in a compassionate tone than nothing. "I'm sorry, I don't know what to say or do."

As for the mother, tell her the young man confessed to some terrible things that had weighed on his conscience.

MrFun · February 20, 2003, 23:55

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Look at it from a selfish viewpoint if you want, assuming a belief in God.
Just forgive him. The token effort gets chalked up on your asset side of the ledger.
Real difficult.

Look, I know you're a Texan, so I will try to be extra patient with you.

I was not looking to offend anyone with my opinions in that last post of mine, so where did your sarcasm come from?

Boris Godunov · February 20, 2003, 23:58

MrFun, why do you insist on dredging up something long after its over? Like I said, the recriminating bickering should stop.

Sava · February 20, 2003, 23:59

If you truly believe God to be everything, than as good as he is, he is still evil. He created everything, good and evil. I understand what you were trying to do with your comparisons, obiwan, don't worry I don't think less of you.

I think that Western Christianity's version of God being supremely good is wrong. God created both good and evil. He is inherently neutral. But this divide between Western and Orthodox Christianity goes back to the Byzantine days. I'm not sure what denomination you are obiwan, but protestantism in particular has changed it's definition of God into this beautiful ray of sunshine type God. Perhaps you need to read more of the Old Testament. Jesus was good, Jesus was a part of God... but he is not God. Satan is also a part of God. If you believe God is all powerful and such, then you can't deny this.

I personally don't believe it because it was written by man...

I actually find it quite offensive that as good as I live my life, and as good as others live there's; many Christians think that the difference between Mother Teresa and Hitler is negligible (in terms of goodness and evil).

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 00:01

Sava, that post was 100% irrelevant to the thread topic. So shut up and stop it. Thanks.

MrFun · February 21, 2003, 00:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
MrFun, why do you insist on dredging up something long after its over? Like I said, the recriminating bickering should stop.

Um -- because I have a life and as a result, I just got back to this thread tonight and saw his comment for the first time?

So what was old news for you, is new news for me. Anyway, I gave my opinion -- a legitimate one.

Ben Kenobi · February 21, 2003, 00:06

Sava- pm me or start another thread.

Ok?

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 00:07

Quote:

Originally posted by MrFun

Um -- because I have a life and as a result, I just got back to this thread tonight and saw his comment for the first time?

So what was old news for you, is new news for me. Anyway, I gave my opinion -- a legitimate one.

None of that explains why you insist on continuing in ***-for-tat exchanges when asked already to stop.

And no one thinks your opinions are any more or less legitimate than any one else's, so stop being so defensive about them.

Urban Ranger · February 21, 2003, 00:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Sava, that post was 100% irrelevant to the thread topic. So shut up and stop it. Thanks.

Valiant effort, but ultimately futile. You can't really keep any control over any threads you have started on 'Poly, particularly in Off Topic.

MrFun · February 21, 2003, 00:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

None of that explains why you insist on continuing in ***-for-tat exchanges when asked already to stop.

And no one thinks your opinions are any more or less legitimate than any one else's, so stop being so defensive about them.

Geez -- I saw an insult directed at me for the first time tonight, and I responded and stood up for myself.

It's done with now.

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 00:47

UR--you'd think the topic would inspire more reverence...at least a little!

Quote:

Originally posted by MrFun
Geez -- I saw an insult directed at me for the first time tonight, and I responded and stood up for myself.

It's done with now.

Oh, get off it. It wasn't directed at you, it was directed at everyone, and it wasn't an "insult," as much is it just pointless rambling.

And considering your first comment to Sloww, I couldn't blame him had it been an insult, now could I?

Yes, it's done. Though the damage may not be undone...

Imran Siddiqui · February 21, 2003, 01:30

What in the ****ing Hell happened to this thread?!

Jeez... Boris, no sense in trying to restore it. I recommend you tell Ming to nuke this one and start over. What a mess...

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 10:34

Boris solicits opinions, and flames whomever offers one.
Arrogance is his calling card.

The real point of this?
The instructor knew full-well the controversy of viewpoints it stirs.
Who do you identify with most?
Are you a military veteran, who knows the dying soldier actually had little to do with the evil?
Are you Jewish?
Are you of some other..group, that has experienced prejudice?
Do you have respect for opinions offered?

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 10:41

Sloww, I asked you to leave and the bickering to stop. But you can't let go, I see. You can look at the first page. Nobody flamed you for your opinion. It was your sanctimonious "I'm more compassionate than y'all" attitude that started this, since you seem so keen on lording your perceived compassion over others. It doesn't show much respect for others opinions when you openly state you're better than them.

So get off it, get out and leave this to those of us who actually like to give serious thought to the responses of others.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 10:50

Screw off, Boris.
But I'll happily leave your arrogant thread.

Ming · February 21, 2003, 12:17

I see some bannings in some people's future if this crap continues...

Now stay on topic. And don't continue the petty arguments. And if I see any of the same people arguing in other threads, they will get restricted without warning.

Sava · February 21, 2003, 12:23

Sorry Mingy, obiwan and I got a little off-topic.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 12:28

"So get off it, get out and leave this to those of us who actually like to give serious thought to the responses of others."

And my post wasn't serious?
It was dead-on.
Ask the guy, your teacher.
To refresh your memory.

"The instructor knew full-well the controversy of viewpoints it stirs.
Who do you identify with most?
Are you a military veteran, who knows the dying soldier actually had little to do with the evil?
Are you Jewish?
Are you of some other..group, that has experienced prejudice?
Do you have respect for opinions offered?"

Just do me a favor, and ask the guy.

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 12:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
I see some bannings in some people's future if this crap continues...

Now stay on topic. And don't continue the petty arguments. And if I see any of the same people arguing in other threads, they will get restricted without warning.

Thank you.

(Now I'll wait for the follow through...)

Ozz · February 21, 2003, 13:23

Good thread about Compassion, Understanding & Forgiveness.

The last posts are as relevant as the first ones

Ming · February 21, 2003, 13:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozz
Good thread about Compassion, Understanding & Forgiveness.

The last posts are as relevant as the first ones

I found it quite ironic as well...

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 13:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

I found it quite ironic as well...

So what's your thought on the situation that Wiesenthal faced?

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 13:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Calc II
I wont stereo-type Jews in general but one Jew I knew long time ago used to hate Nazis with such a passion, he himself became sort of Nazi hating the Jew kinda relationship. In that case, I would say he is no better than a "hateful murderous bigot".

You have a serious flaw in your character if you can equate what the Nazis did to mere hatred of them.

Quote:

Then you have a qualified personality to become something as evil as the nazis.

Those are fighting words. If we were in person and you had said that to me, I'd probably have been arrested for assault and battery.

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
A number of old IJA soldiers who had taken part in the atrocity was later overcame by an enormous grief. They completely renounced the actions of the IJA and their own. They are going around Japan to give accounts of their stories, facing accusations and even lawsuits from the rightwingers.

This is the difference between saying you repent and actual repentence. True repentence means you risk something. The solider risked nothing. He was already dying. He was trying to gain something by his confession, peace of mind. That's not repentence. If he was truely repentnent, he wouldn't have asked for forgiveness.