The Sunflower Dilemma - Could you forgive? - Page 5

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 13:40

Really. Go back and relook at the first postings.
I offered an humble opinion, suspecting full well what was going to occur.
Someone, comes back with "What makes you think I'd disagree?", then promptly roasts me. Again.

I still think the teacher knows there are differing viewpoints.

Ming · February 21, 2003, 13:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So what's your thought on the situation?

I would have told the same lie...

The dead are dead... The living don't really need to be burdened with the sins of others if they don't have to.
It wasn't her fault.

The truth would have been just cruel and uncalled for, while his actions were a simple act of mercy... which in my opinion, is the right thing to do.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 13:43

Bingo.

SpencerH · February 21, 2003, 13:55

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

I disagree. I don't believe you are the most compassionate. Your compassion is for a monster who committed a crime against humanity, not for the humanity which this monster helped destroy.

I would have told the man, "I will not forgive you, and God will not forgive you either." I would also have told his mother what her son had done. When it comes to the Holocaust, "Never forgive. Never forget."

My sentiments (almost) exactly.

SpencerH · February 21, 2003, 14:13

Interesting thread, but change the context slightly. Some serial child molester gets run over by an 18 wheeler in fron of you and while he's busy dying he 'repents' his sins to you and your 10 year old daughter.

Could you forgive?

Az · February 21, 2003, 14:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Calc II

I wont stereo-type Jews in general but one Jew I knew long time ago used to hate Nazis with such a passion, he himself became sort of Nazi hating the Jew kinda relationship. In that case, I would say he is no better than a "hateful murderous bigot".

Then you have a qualified personality to become something as evil as the nazis.

When did I say what you quoted me on saying in that post, Calc?!

WTF?!!!

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 14:18

I wrote it, he just quotes it as you for some reason.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 14:19

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Interesting thread, but change the context slightly. Some serial child molester gets run over by an 18 wheeler in fron of you and while he's busy dying he 'repents' his sins to you and your 10 year old daughter.

Could you forgive?

No, but that's not the same.

Zero · February 21, 2003, 14:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel

When did I say what you quoted me on saying in that post, Calc?!

WTF?!!!

I only quote the first quote with author's name (i click "quote") the from on I use q /q

I think everyone knew this by now. sorry.

Az · February 21, 2003, 14:24

In any case, the comparison between hating Nazis, and hating jews is ****ing stupid.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 14:26

As far as "confronting the mother", that would be just exactly the same as CivNation going and harassing someone's mother.

Yeah. Here comes another disagreement and flame, but the parallel is there.

SpencerH · February 21, 2003, 14:36

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand

No, but that's not the same.

Why not? My version just brings the dilemma closer to home.

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 14:41

I think it matters because you're talking about a young naive military member, as opposed to a social degenerate.
Yesss, the Nazi's suck as a group. Don't go there, please.
I'm just not prepared to make the blanket statement that each individual was evil.

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 14:50

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand

No, but that's not the same.

Yep. Everyone loves children, but the Nazi just killed Jews. He can be forgiven.

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Yep. Everyone loves children, but the Nazi just killed Jews. He can be forgiven.

What the soldier had done, from a purely consequential standpoint, is far worse--mass killing is worse than serial child molesting, albeit a horrible distinction to have to make.

However, there is a difference of circumstances. A child molester acts entirely of his own volition, contrary to the values around him, and if he is "serial," he did so repeatedly.

Karl participated in one massacre, under orders (not an excuse, but a circumstance), and in an environment where there was tremendous pressure due to their intense fighting, and due to the prevailing attitudes by his comrades--Jews were subhuman, the same rules didn't apply to them. Karl makes it clear that during and directly after the murders, he feels remorse and disgust at what he has done. That he is shortly thereafter hit by a shell and sent to a hospital to die is hardly his fault, and I don't see what opportunity he would have had to "repent" prior to his wounding.

I just don't see any reason to doubt Karl's remorse as genuine--Weisenthal does not, and he would have more reason to doubt than any of us. So it comes down again to when is there a point of no return for contrition?

SlowwHand · February 21, 2003, 15:02

As I said, and just like Boris, you choose to ignore, I never condoned Nazi's.
Talking INDIVIDUALS, not the GROUP.
As a matter of fact, that would be more up your alley, wouldn't it?

Ming · February 21, 2003, 15:04

HEY!

See you in 24 hours Sloww for making the following personal attack after a warning..

Quote:

As a matter of fact, that would be more up your alley, wouldn't it

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 15:10

Ok, let's wipe the slate clean here. It's now down to given your opinion on what YOU would do if you were in Wiesenthal's situation.

If you've already stated your opinion, I'd kindly ask that you just let others who haven't say what they would do. I'd also like to avoid recriminating others for their particular answers. Thanks.

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 15:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I just don't see any reason to doubt Karl's remorse as genuine--Weisenthal does not, and he would have more reason to doubt than any of us.

I don't care. His crimes far outweigh his feelings.

Az · February 21, 2003, 15:20

Che, but I don't think that him enduring that last pain will be of any utility.

chequita guevara · February 21, 2003, 15:25

Forgiving him would cause pain to those in the camp, as well as the families of the massacred (provided any survived). Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

Boris Godunov · February 21, 2003, 15:33

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Forgiving him would cause pain to those in the camp, as well as the families of the massacred (provided any survived). Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

None of them need know you said anything. As far as those people are concerned, Karl wouldn't have even existed. He'd have just been one of the many SS men who committed crimes.

If it would cause you pain, then of course that's your personal decision.

Chris 62 · February 21, 2003, 15:37

Having come in late, and not really having read the posts after the intial, my opinion.

Should he have forgiven the soldier?
No

Should he have taken the letter?
No

Should he have lied to the mother?
Yes

My reasoning is only from my point of view.
Commiting atrocieties and asking your victim for absolution seems rather odd, if he needs forgiveness as a catholic, he should ask god for it.

That covers the letter as well, he could ask a chaplin or a nurse for help there.

The mother is an innocent, she didn't need the pain of knowing her son was a war criminal.

Just my 2 cents.

Az · February 21, 2003, 15:37

The pain you would cause yourself by forgiving him is the only thing keeping me from saying to him I forgive him. Therefor, Ideally I would try to strike a balance.

Of course, there, and then, I'd probably curse him, or if fearing repricussions, would leave the room.

loinburger · February 21, 2003, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
This is the difference between saying you repent and actual repentence.

That's why I'd've kicked him in the nuts and then asked if he were still repentant. If somebody wants to be forgiven, then they've got to earn it -- they've got to prove that they're genuine.

Sten Sture · February 21, 2003, 20:22

I would say "you are forgiven" even if it was bullsh!t. I believe in aleviating suffering, even for those who may deserve their pain, and with lies if necessary. If that hurts me or makes me feel guilty, so be it. And definately concoct some story for the soldiers mother, to let her rest in peace.

Like how Marlow handled telling Kurtz's wife about his death in Conrad's Heart of Darkness. 'he spoke your name' when he really said 'the horror, the horror'

Good thread, Boris.

JCG · February 22, 2003, 00:37

I would tell him that I am not the one who has to forgive him, but I IMHO think he has received his just punishment.

I would also have told the truth to his mother, she deserves to know. Better to know a horrible truth than to forever live in doubt.

MattyBoy · February 26, 2003, 00:54

OK
I stopped reading after page 4.

At first, I thought the question was simple and my answers were as follows:

a) It doesn't matter, as he will be dead in a few hours anyway - so, whatever makes the Jew feel comfortable at the time.

b) I agree. Why upset the mother for something that she didn't cause anyway?

After reading further, I felt that Vel made a good point with (a). I have now changed my mind to say that I could not live with myself if I had forgiven him. This is more important than providing a brief moment of comfort.

Quote:

It would do ME harm to forgive, in the case presented by the initial post. I couldn't do it. Couldn't live with myself.

I have shifted my opinion on (b), too. If it were a less important crime, I would choose not to upset his mum just for honesty's sake. However a crime like this is so significant it demands public airing to reduce its chances of being repeated. The scale of the crime also adds weight to the need to speak honestly.

MattyBoy · February 26, 2003, 01:05

Actually, It doesn't matter what you say to the criminal and his mother, as long as you write a book to publicise the truth. This is a much more efficient way to propogate the truth.

Straybow · February 26, 2003, 02:56

Quote:

If he was truely repentnent, he wouldn't have asked for forgiveness.

Hmmm, I wonder where you learned about repentance? That is diametrically opposed to the truth. Repentance can only be driven by the desire for forgiveness, else there would be no point.

Quote:

Most importantly, it would cause pain to me.

Ah, there's the rub. Hearing a confession and all that is for the other person. It isn't about you.