Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 24, 2003, 08:48   #181
Grumbold
Emperor
 
Grumbold's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 3,732
Its been said already in the last nine pages but I'll chime in on that side of the opnion. MoO2 created a galactic civilisation that could be run single handedly by a fairly competent person with one eye and half a brain. You could play and watch TV, chat to your partner or generally hop up and down from the PC without risking losing the plot in the game. It was heaven for micromanagers because every single task was a no-brainer but there were lots of them to do, just like in the Civ games that so inspired MoO2. You could be deeply absorbed by it if you had the opportunity, but it wasn't important to do so.

Would I have liked another classic simple easy to manage space combat game? Well, sure. I've got at least a dozen of those of varying quality and playability in the cupboard however. What I don't have is a game that actually makes me feel like I really am the supreme ruler of the galaxy with hundreds of planets and fleets at my command. Why? Because I've got to get off of my Imperial throne every two seconds to play the flunky's flunky who twiddles with crop management on planet Plik and industrial output on planet Dweeb because there's absolutely nobody else who will do it for me.

I want the chance to experience a truly BIG game. The way things currently stand that only happens at wargame conventions when you get thirty a side games of playing the high command, and there only one of the thirty can be the man in the big seat ultimately responsible for the big decisions plus a few on his immediate staff get to hear all the reports and offer advice. The rest are only there to interpret and report on their sector and apply whatever orders come down from above.

This is the first computer game that attempts to take that game approach and apply it to the "civilisation" genre. Not long ago Combat Mission did it for wargames and it proved pretty popular. You can't move the men individually there, you cant dictate to them exactly when to fire each shot or override their decisions about whether to advance in the advance of fire or cower in their foxholes, and this AI is praised.

I'm looking forward to accepting the challenge of MoO3 by picking up the reins of power and yanking on them hard. My job is to learn how to be the best Supreme Overlord, not to discover how many cherry pickers is optimum for each individual planet in my domain and order them buit on the optimum turn before moving on to consider the perfect weapons and electronics combination for my next generation destroyer. Do the President and the Prime Minister know the technical specifications of the warships or tanks they are ordering about, or just that they are the forces their generals think can get the job done? I think I know the answer to that one. If the generals screw up, I'm the one who gets to choose the manner of their unpleasant death. Now that's a decision befitting a Supreme Overlord!
__________________
To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. H.Poincare
Grumbold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 09:30   #182
CharlesBHoff
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: el paso texas
Posts: 512
There are time when the indisivable way down whom you have no control over does the right thing by not following your order blinding. In WW2 the allies want than brige over
the Upper Rhine river caputer. Than platoon lead by than sergeant to captive than brige got lost in the night ( they have no night vision gear in large scale use yet or GPS to help detame where you are on earth accurate) they saw the Germany blow up than brige but it only weaken the brige not destory it so the platoon ran like hell over the brige to the other side to captive the brige. They radio hight command tell the command what happen and what they did
and to spend help over to then to hold the brigehead on the other side of the Rhine river. All the troop and equipment that was to go to the other brige they where to captive instead went to the wrong brige which they did captive. The engineer also built two platoon brige over the Rhine river by the captive brige.
__________________
By the year 2100 AD over half of the world population will be follower of Islam.
CharlesBHoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 09:30   #183
Stuie
King
 
Stuie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,961
Well put Grumbold!

I actually like the idea that while I will provide direction, my subordinates will interpret that direction in their own manner. This actually makes more sense than being able to absolutely direct EVERY activity in an empire.
__________________
"Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
"I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
"Stuie is right...." - Guynemer
Stuie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 09:33   #184
Ozymandous
Prince
 
Ozymandous's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally posted by vee4473
wow,
is this a little bit of evidence that game companies actually DO pressure reviewers or mags into writing good reviews?

or hint in that direction.


interesting comments i would say...
Ah, no, it means that QS/IG wanted someone who would (at the very least) look at the game in a NEUTRAL/UNBIASED light and report on it, not someone who would deliberately look for every little flaw or issue and only report that.

Reading comprehension is a good thing, you might want to try using it a little more often.
Ozymandous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 14:22   #185
Rantz
Quicksilver
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Southern CA
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally posted by vee4473


wow,
is this a little bit of evidence that game companies actually DO pressure reviewers or mags into writing good reviews?
sorry to blow a rocket-sized hole in your conspiracy... we stated if you would read, that we wanted someone who would at least have the *pretense* of being objective.

Someone wants to write bad things, it's their choice but journalism (jn theory) is about objective analysis. Or at least the ability to credibly *pretend* you are being objective.
__________________
Rantz Hoseley
Art Director
Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Rantz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 14:29   #186
Harry Seldon
GalCiv Apolyton EmpireNationStates
King
 
Harry Seldon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 1,595
Quote:
Or at least the ability to credibly *pretend* you are being objective.
Ah, the Bill O'Reilly theory!
Harry Seldon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 14:31   #187
canimoo2
Settler
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 12
I'm with Gumbold on this one, however only as long as the games pulls me in!

My biggest fear is that, yes, we may be the supremely benevolent (or malevolent) rulers, but we will just be marginal observers.

Please, I am in no way saying that this is the case, just afraid it might be.

The community will let me know for sure in about 72 hours.
canimoo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 15:27   #188
Grumbold
Emperor
 
Grumbold's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 3,732
If your Supreme Overlord is obviously incompetent, the best thing clearly would be to quietly marginalise the impact of his deranged rantings. Not that I'm suggesting that you will be one such "observer".

Now is my moon sized hot fudge sundae built yet, or do I have to incinerate another advisor for interpreting it as a request for a death star? Well, speak up!
__________________
To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection. H.Poincare
Grumbold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 16:22   #189
Kc7mxo
King
 
Kc7mxo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,038
.
Kc7mxo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 19:51   #190
vee4473
King
 
vee4473's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,513
Quote:
Originally posted by Rantz


sorry to blow a rocket-sized hole in your conspiracy... we stated if you would read, that we wanted someone who would at least have the *pretense* of being objective.

Someone wants to write bad things, it's their choice but journalism (jn theory) is about objective analysis. Or at least the ability to credibly *pretend* you are being objective.
I can read just fine. Why can't you just have a dialog without veiled insults?

but whatever
__________________
While there might be a physics engine that applies to the jugs, I doubt that an entire engine was written specifically for the funbags. - Cyclotron - debating the pressing issue of boobies in games.
vee4473 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 20:19   #191
booje
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles (Los Feliz)
Posts: 73
Heh heh Grumbold has hit the nail on the head. Micro-mangement is kinda fun early in MOO but when I've got fleets bearing down on me and tech development to be concerned with, wondering what some backwater planet was currently building was kind of a pain. I think the goal in MOO3 is to let you see the big picture.

I can hardly wait to deploy a crack team of Bulrathi storm troopers on some hapless planet. "Die you dogs! Die! And where is my GIANT hot fudge sundae??"
booje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 20:33   #192
TheMaestro
NationStates
Warlord
 
TheMaestro's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: of the Potomac
Posts: 135
We'll all find out soon enough.
__________________
Veni, vidi, vici.
[I came, I saw, I conquered].
-- Gaius Julius Caesar
TheMaestro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 21:27   #193
SnowFire
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
SnowFire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: New York City, NY
Posts: 3,736
Well, I had high hopes for Civ3, and ended up being put off by the early good reviews and criticisms, because I realized that the game was Civ 2.1. Still, after the initial flurry of good reviews, I've decided to take a shot and order MOO3. The biggest reason in ignoring this review is not just Tom Chick's hatred of Deus Ex (didn't even read the review), but rather that review of Eternal Darkness. I've just played through ED recently, actually, and his review is so far from the truth it's staggering. He totally missed the point of the game and I half wonder if he played a different one. The only thing I can think of is perhaps he always kept his sanity meter maxed with magic, but that's no fun. Anyway, that gave pause to this review for me, so let's hope for my money's sake that he totally missed the point of MOO3 too.
__________________
All syllogisms have three parts.
Therefore this is not a syllogism.
SnowFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 22:11   #194
billybaruch1
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 48
Here we are New Year's Eve, hours away from the WORLDWIDE release, scrappin anda fonkin. Can't we all get along?

Quote:
sorry to blow a rocket-sized hole in your conspiracy... we stated if you would read, that we wanted someone who would at least have the *pretense* of being objective.
What's this pretend bs? We want the the real thing. But really, I think Stormhound and Rantz and Sencho are great, man. I really do. Alan Emerich... Brian Reynolds... for auld lang sine (whatever that means).

The 1/4 to 3 reviewer missed the boat on specifying development plans. The "A" Vault reviewer, in a similar, but different, way was unwilling to suspend disbelief.

It may be like a movie or a novel (or an opera, not that I'd know anything about those). Just immerse yourself in the Galaxy and, then bring it on!

The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.

Of course, your mileage may vary.
billybaruch1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 22:43   #195
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by vee4473
I can read just fine.
The mis-reading he was probably referring to was that he said:

Quote:
from Rantz on page 2:
... we (QS and IG) told him that if they wanted to do another article or review/preview on MOO3 that they would need to get someone who could be at least semi-objective in his reporting.
and you responded:
Quote:
is this a little bit of evidence that game companies actually DO pressure reviewers or mags into writing good reviews?

or hint in that direction.
All he said was that they were going for was "semi-objective" (as opposed to giving it a negative review out-of-hand because it isn't like Sid's work), whereas you transformed "semi-objective" into "good". I'll grant that your "little bit of evidence" and "or hint..." give the observation a more-appropriate tentativeness, but you still translated "semi-objective" into "semi-positive", which isn't quite correct.

Quote:
Why can't you just have a dialog without veiled insults?
Good question. The answer is probably that Rantz has had to put up with an awful lot of aggravation from the fans, particularly those who misread his posts, and may sometimes get a a little snappy in a veiled sort of way. That doesn't excuse it, but it's a possible answer to your question.

... why did I just take that much time to explain some things everyone probably already knew? ... that's right, I'm bored!

anyway...
Cedayon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24, 2003, 23:24   #196
billybaruch1
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 48
they didn't even wait until the clock went to 0
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...899021,00.html
billybaruch1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2003, 02:33   #197
booje
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles (Los Feliz)
Posts: 73
Hey so what's up with Antaran X's?? All you do is send some ships out and that's it?
booje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2003, 03:39   #198
darcy
Warlord
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 157
What did you eXpect?
darcy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2003, 05:33   #199
CharlesBHoff
Prince
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: el paso texas
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally posted by Grumbold
If your Supreme Overlord is obviously incompetent, the best thing clearly would be to quietly marginalise the impact of his deranged rantings. Not that I'm suggesting that you will be one such "observer".

Now is my moon sized hot fudge sundae built yet, or do I have to incinerate another advisor for interpreting it as a request for a death star? Well, speak up!
All system of government that worked over the long haul have than way to deal with incompetent leader. Even than competent leader cannot run everything, he needed good man and woman under him or her to run thing. In the milkly way galaxy there may-be about 200 million planet that can or can be make to support human life or other life form that can live on our planet type. If I want to rule all these planets I cannot do so directly by micro-mangenment but only indirectly by given general order to be carry out and or disokey if my command will cause more problen for the vicroyal. In WW2 Churchhill sent than order to the Viceroyal of India to kill Gandie , the Viceroyal disobey that supid order as killing Gandie would have lead to masive unrest and posible revolt in India. The only Nation that doesnot have than way to deal with incompetent leader is America. Look at JRK and
the Bay of Pig fiaso and LBJ and the Vietman War and Ronald Regan and Star War.
__________________
By the year 2100 AD over half of the world population will be follower of Islam.
CharlesBHoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2003, 18:12   #200
Kc7mxo
King
 
Kc7mxo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,038
Quote:
What did you eXpect?
I don't know about everyone else, but I was expecting to have to go find some paticular star system, fight a guardian or maybe ground forces to get an X. Not just deploy ships. It lacks. . . .control.

I would have just had you get random clues from traders or something, kinda like what happened in Imperium Galactica 2. And then I'd have either a large guardian defending the world, or extensive hostile ground forces. I wouldn't let you do any bombardment from orbit either, as that would "destroy" the X. And I'd also have the several of the X's duplicated, so you'd still have a shot at getting them all, even if your enemies found a few. But only a few duplicates, so sometimes you'd still have to fight for them.
Kc7mxo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25, 2003, 18:13   #201
kalbear
Warlord
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 282
Deploying ships is one way of finding the Xs. There are others.
kalbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 14:40   #202
booje
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles (Los Feliz)
Posts: 73
I am running an experiment: I don't do anything except hit the 'Next Turn' button. So far after playing for 1+ hours I am at turn 200 and have not lost yet.

How long will it take for me to lose?
booje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 15:23   #203
Craig P.
Warlord
 
Local Time: 14:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 147
I can understand, even after three or four hours of play, why Tom Chick wouldn't like it.

I don't share his opinion, mind you, but based on what he says he doesn't like about it, I understand why.
Craig P. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 15:32   #204
ChaotikVisions
Civilization IV Creators
Prince
 
ChaotikVisions's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 557
I did a similar experiment. Impossible Level/Default AI settings/Small Cluster/16 Civs/Playing as Sakkra.

I lost on turn 150. I think the AI may not be as aggressive if it can expand, and it may not launch ground assaults alot. I had been getting bombed since about turn 60-70, slow annihilation of my population. They could have easily invaded me I think, not sure why they didn't. I personally would prefer a more aggressive AI, but this myth about winning without doing anything is just that, a myth. If you want to even have a remote chance of winning you need to tweak the AI to at least colonize other planets for you, not to mention the fact that you'll only ever get the default system ships that way, since you aren't deploying your fleets either.
__________________
"Every good communist should know political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao tse-Tung
ChaotikVisions is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 16:41   #205
booje
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles (Los Feliz)
Posts: 73
Doesn't it seem kind of odd (scary?) that I could be at game 200 without doing anything except hit the next turn button and not have lost yet?
booje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 16:46   #206
TrainWreck20
Warlord
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 115
Is your civ colonizing? Or are you staying in your home system? If you are small and your neighbors don't even like your type of planet, I am sure you are not worth their while....esp. in a one of the larger galaxy options when there are other worlds.

Besides, maybe you haven't lost, but are you in last place? There are more ways to lose than to get wiped out.....
TrainWreck20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 16:52   #207
Pax
Chieftain
 
Pax's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 37
I have played the first rfts,armada 2525, moo, civ, moo2, civ2, smac, civ3 with varying degrees of satisfaction. eu2, the second rfts and ig2 have mainly stayed in my CD case. The former games pulled me into what was going on. I was disillusioned with games that lacked character. In Civ2 I was Carthage and hated the Spanish for challenging my control of the med. I loved the Morgan Faction's business principles and the social engineering aspects of smac that allowed me to build my perfect society.
After the original rfts and Armada2525, I was amazed by MOO's ability to take the numbers and visualize them. Supreme Leaders have to have parades, kiss babies or hatchlings. Societies have to have a face of there enemy. When I purchased the second rfts I was supremely disappointed. I want character in my games and complexity.
That being said. I am reserving my opinion of MOO3 until I personally find lack of character.
__________________
What can make a nigga wanna fight a whole night club/Figure that he ought to maybe be a pimp simply 'cause he don't like love/What can make a nigga wanna achy, break all rules/In a book when it took a lot to get you hooked up to this volume/
What can make a nigga wanna loose all faith in/Anything that he can't feel through his chest wit sensation
Pax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 16:54   #208
darcy
Warlord
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 157
Quote:
I think the AI may not be as aggressive if it can expand, and it may not launch ground assaults alot.
Quote:
If you are small and your neighbors don't even like your type of planet, I am sure you are not worth their while....
You're trying to find excuses for an AI that is probably just malfunctioning. This is reminding me of a funny post by Brad Wardell I read today:

Quote:
In defense of fanboys everywhere..

Early on in the beta of our current game, during the "United Planets" security council meetings, civilizations would vote randomly on resolutions. This was place holder stuff until the AI for it could be put in.

But some of our fans would come up with impressively complex explanations as to why the AI voted a certain way. "Ah! You see, the Drengin were trying to psyche out the Arceans by voting in a way that seemed to go against their better interests.." when in reality it was just ulVote = rand()%5.

Of course, voting now has AI behind it and so the votes by the AI make more sense but we no longer get that cool "Ah! The Yor are sucking up to the Altarians by voting their way even though they're at war.." anymore.

In other words, there's nothing that unusual about IMOO. Fans tend to give something the benefit of the doubt.

Remember: Whenever something that doesn't make sense happens, wizards did it.
darcy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 17:28   #209
Antonin
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally posted by Stuie
Funny that he loved EU, which to my mind did the same thing: much of the calculations are running under the hood and it's your job to just shut up and move the pieces around, leaving all those numbers alone to do their own thing.....

But then, I never took the time to learn how to play EU. A lot of people did, and really enjoy. Looks like MOO3 may be the same type of game.
When I bought EU2 I tried to play it and it seemed like a completely opaque mess. I put it aside and then 8 months later tried it again, spent some time trying everything, failing, losing, etc, and then suddenly everything clicked and now it is one of my five favorite games of all time.

I'm not saying all strategy games should be like this. I understand that a game like this will turn off a lot of players. But if MOO3 is the "same type of game" as EU2, then it is definitely something I want to own.
Antonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27, 2003, 17:29   #210
booje
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 20:10
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles (Los Feliz)
Posts: 73
Hmmm....maybe you're right TrainWreck...

I SO want to like (love) MOO3! I will try again some more tonight.

Gotta say though when I popped in Medieval Total War it was pretty much love at first sight.

Maybe I just need to give Moo3 more time and chances...
booje is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:10.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team