Thread Tools
Old February 24, 2003, 15:05   #1
epics
Warlord
 
epics's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: PL
Posts: 136
Useless army
I heard here that the armies are wonderfull etc. I never had a chance to use one so I didn't know. Lately I had a leader so was thinking "Let's try". And so I did. Three veteran infantry walking through enemy's territory. Let's try how it works. So I attacked 11 population city, was figting against one vet infantry. Guess what was the result... it was, hmmmm, not very successful for me. In fact I lost my army and the AI's infantry didn't get any shot, not one HP lost!!! Can you imagine that?! I say pretty ****** man !!!!! From now, **** the armies
epics is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 15:16   #2
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
Next time you want to attack veteran infantry put three tanks into your army and do some bombardment beforehand. That should produce a better result.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 15:24   #3
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
Infantry are not an attack unit, unless you bombard the hell out of the unit you are going to attack.

6 attack, 10 defense, 1 move. Infantry armies are really, really hard to kill, so I occasionally build them to protect a stack of artillery + attack troops.

Armies are much more useful if you put attackers in them. In the ancient age, I like swordsman armies. In the middle ages, Knight armies and Cavalry armies are very powerful.

In the industrial age, infantry for inpenetrable defense, Tanks as "nutcrackers" for heavily defended AI cities. For really good balance, I've had 3xTank + 1xMech Inf.

But nothing beats the 4x Modern Armor Army.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 15:25   #4
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
By the way, an infantry unit fortified in a size 11 city has a defense of 17.5 against your attack of 6. Them's not good odds.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 16:20   #5
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
In some recent games, I sometimes ended up with more armies than I could use (8-10). An army will often prevent the AI to attack at all, but don't count on it: In another game I lost a couple of infantry armies to hordes of attacking cavallery.
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 16:46   #6
Abdul-Aziz
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Land of Eternal Truth
Posts: 75
Arrian is right. The best units use for attack are (in different ages):
Horseman - Knight - Cavalry - Tank - Modern Armour
Also you can use:
Swordsman - Bowman - Longbowman - Medieval Infantry - Guerilla
Abdul-Aziz is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 16:54   #7
badams52
King
 
badams52's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: near the magic kingdom
Posts: 1,001
Also when I played recently, the AI seemed to think an army of 3 cavalry is to strong to attack unless he has tanks so he won't even attack your army. So you can use the cavalry army to defend weak units, defend other cavalry when on a pillaging resources run, etc. My guess is other armies get this same benefit depending upon the units the AI has. I've never seen the AI attack an army of MI (though usually by that point I have UP)
__________________
badams
badams52 is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 20:48   #8
pedrojedi
Prince
 
pedrojedi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Porto Alegre, RS
Posts: 532
I like the army of explorers. Sometime I will try making an army of workers or settlers. I shouldn't work, but if it does, it will be plenty of fun, hehehe...

When attacking infantry in industrial age... Bombard. Bombard like you never bombarded before. Go there, be happy, and make some big black holes on the ground, level the AI's terrain down. And then begin counting pieces of city afterwards.
pedrojedi is offline  
Old February 24, 2003, 23:59   #9
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
I use armies like Arrian and one more thing. They are great to use to sit on a city you just took. I love old calv armies that are now unable to go against MA/MI, but they can sit on that large pop and pacifiy them. The AI often will leave that city alone, it will not come after it with a couple of infantry units. If they come with a real army, send your army.
Do not get mad at the army, it was miss used. A large city is not to be attacked with just anything.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 04:43   #10
Daz
Prince
 
Daz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Deaf forever
Posts: 599
Yep, someone said "nutcracker" and thats just what the army is. You will not take a city with just one army (at least not as fast as you would like and not until tanks or MA). The army is there to kill that Elite Infantry or Elite MI without you loosing 3 or 4 Cavalry or Tanks. After you get rid of the best defender, single units can ussually do the job.
Daz is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 05:05   #11
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Does it make more sense to mix units within an army, or to use a "pure" army with single units or another army to handle defense?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 07:17   #12
Chemical Ollie
King
 
Chemical Ollie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hooked on a feeling
Posts: 1,780
Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Does it make more sense to mix units within an army, or to use a "pure" army with single units or another army to handle defense?
I normally use pure armies, but I make both infantry armies for defense and cavallery or tank armies as nutcrackers. Ancient swordsmen armies are well balanced.
__________________
So get your Naomi Klein books and move it or I'll seriously bash your faces in - Supercitizen to stupid students
Lord know, I've made some judgement errors as a mod here. The fact that most of you are still allowed to post here is proof of that. - Rah
Chemical Ollie is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 14:45   #13
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
TMM -

I'd say it depends. Theseus, whose opinion I respect, loves mixed unit armies. I typically use "pure" armies of swords, knights, cav, tanks*, and modern armor.

* - as I noted above, I've had 3xTanks and 1xMech Inf armies. That made sense to me because 1) I had just gotten Comps and was a ways from Synth Fibers; and 2) Tanks have a relatively weak defense (8) and adding the Mech Inf dealt with that w/o slowing the army down.

As China, I have formed 2x Rider armies, awaiting Mil Tradition to add a Cavalry for added punch. That way, I still have a "pure" 3-mover force. I think I even added a MA to such an army once.

In my current game, I did make an army with 2 legionaries (one vet, one elite who generated the leader for the army) and 1 vet med inf. I liked the added hitting power of the med inf. leading the charge, but with 9hp of 3-defense backing him up. Once I get the Pentagon, I'm sure I'll add an infantry. I try not to mix slow-movers and mobile units.

I could definitely see a 1xImpi + 2xhorseman army being useful, if one was inclined to play the Zulu. But horseman are most useful in hordes of individual units, and their usefulness pretty much ends with the advent of feudalism. Sure, I keep elite horsemen around to finish off beat up longbowmen and such hoping to get more leaders, but armies don't generate leaders. Therefore, a horseman army has a very limited shelf life. The only shorter one I can think of is an archer army.

Armies are occasionally useful in combat, but the truth is they really aren't that big a boost. Their value, IMO, is limited to allowing construction of the HE to increase you chances of getting leaders, and the "nutcracker" role to help reduce casualties vs. well-defended cities (though artillery is more effective to do that job, you just need a lot of it).

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 16:50   #14
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
I do not mix units in an army very often. When I do it will be of necessity. Even then, I would like to at least match speeds. IOW, no 1 move units with 2/3 move units.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old February 25, 2003, 17:20   #15
Abdul-Aziz
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Land of Eternal Truth
Posts: 75
Yeah, I also like to have specific armies - defensive and ofensive...
Abdul-Aziz is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 05:53   #16
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Okay -- thanks!

does anyone know if the units in an army contribute to the 4K unit limit, or if the whole thing just counts for one?
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 06:46   #17
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
I would think the units in the army all count and the army itself also counts as one. I am basing this on the fact that a three unit army takes up four spaces in a transport.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 10:11   #18
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
That's my understanding as well, considering that if you try to put a 3x knight army in a caravel, it won't fit (3 capacity, army is actually 4). Plus, the F3 screen will list the knights that are in the army amongst your other knights, and the army gets its own entry.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 12:16   #19
smellymummy
King
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 2,079
bombarding works good... but it destroys so much.

its better sometimes to bite the bullet, suffer casualties, just to be able to quickly sweep up a heavy production AI city. Starve off the survivors, or build workers, replenish with your own citizens, and voila, recoup your losses behind enemy lines!
smellymummy is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 13:39   #20
Jawa Jocky
Prince
 
Jawa Jocky's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Seattle
Posts: 555
I like armies as the first attacker of the city.

Mixed army rule - Your army is only as fast as the slowest unit.
Jawa Jocky is offline  
Old March 2, 2003, 11:53   #21
Thirgaral
Civilization III PBEMCivilization III MultiplayerPtWDG2 Sunshine
Warlord
 
Thirgaral's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: On vacation in Sunny lands
Posts: 229
I have a question:
If I´ve loaded som units into an army and, for some reason, I regret it, is there some way to unload them or are they stuck there forever?
Thirgaral is offline  
Old March 2, 2003, 13:06   #22
pedrojedi
Prince
 
pedrojedi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Porto Alegre, RS
Posts: 532
Forever! And ever! They'll be stuck in theeeeree!

At least the units IN the army can improve their hit points gaining promotions. I used to way until I got 3 elite troups to put in an army. Now even regular ones should do the job (not very well).
pedrojedi is offline  
Old March 2, 2003, 14:37   #23
vmxa1
PtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
vmxa1's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oviedo, Fl
Posts: 14,103
With the first army, I will use most anything. I just want to get the first win.
After that I like to wait for Calv and make them with an Elite calv that has already made a leader. This way I get the extra HP and the elite is not going to make another leader anyway and can not be upgraded further.
I may make one army with tanks and take the hit for the elite, but only one.
Once I get to MA, it is back to trying to use a unit that has already made a leader. I will then jam in newly minted vets MA units as I can make as many as I want. The army will have lots HP's and can gain one during a battle. This can be very important for the times the army is beating down to 6-8 HP's. Getting a promo and gaining another HP will make the less vulnerable to a counter attack.
Anyway you can not remove them as a rule. I recall there was a bug that let you do it under some conditions, I think it was patched.
vmxa1 is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 16:38   #24
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
1. All in all, how many GLs do you produce in a given game?

2. What % of those GLs go towards armies, as opposed to wonders?

3. When do you build your first army? First chance you get, or do you use the GL on something like the FP, etc?
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 16:47   #25
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Q. How many GLs in a game?
A. Totally inappropriate question, because the answer is totally meaningless. Even with a militaristic civ (better Elite unit creation), there may be ZERO Great Leaders -- or there may be 10+!!

Yahweh, basically your 3 questions are VERY situation dependent.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 17:00   #26
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
I understand that. But people around here talk about their armies all the time... I often play as a militaristic civ, and the most I've ever gotten was (I believe) 4 GLs. I didn't use a single one to build an army! I've built one once before just to see what it was like, but I won my wars with masses of normal troops.

I guess I just don't understand how an army can be more useful than rushing a wonder being built in, presumably, one of your most productive cities, which could be producing a top-line attack or defense unit every few turns or so.

That's why I was wondering if you guys were producing more great leaders than me, somehow.
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 17:18   #27
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
As already mentioned in this thread and others, an army can make life much easier, whether it's to take out strong defenders without having to wait for bombardment to take effect or to BE a strong defense. Any time avoiding losses is important to you (e.g., warfare in Rep/Dem), having armies is important (well, at least preferable)!

If you do not have a great wonder or FP that needs rushing at the time, it is generally good to create that first Army, have a victorious combat with it & build Heroic Epic to assist in getting more GLs.

If you have not had experience with Armies, you are missing out! And yes, LEARNING how to use them correctly can take a little trial and error.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 17:34   #28
Yahweh Sabaoth
King
 
Yahweh Sabaoth's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Heavens
Posts: 1,167
Well, next time I'm caught in an ancient-era war, I'll give it a shot, just to get that Heroic Epic.
Yahweh Sabaoth is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 18:05   #29
Japher
Emperor
 
Japher's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Mu Mu Land
Posts: 6,570
I only use 1 army. As soon as I get a hero i make an army, and load the unit that created it, and then attack with it to get the Heroic Epic so that I can get more heroes. I generally keep them as pure armies, and generally for defensive purposes. Once I get the academy it may be neat to have multiple armies, but I can't see the point.
__________________
Monkey!!!
Japher is offline  
Old March 3, 2003, 18:23   #30
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:17
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
I used to use my first leader to create an army, just to build the Heroic Epic and increase my chance of further leaders. Now I have edited the military academy to require five barracks, not a victorious army, so I can build armies later in the game anyway. So my first leader usually goes on the forbidden palace.

In my current game, as the Koreans, my first leader went on the FP and my second on Sistine as I managed to build Leo's anyway. It is 1110AD and I am ahead in tech and using knights but have no saltpeter.

Once I get mil. trad. I will build the academy and after industrializing I usually go with four tank armies, later four MA armies, and set about military conquest. I find that number of armies is sufficient to take any city if supported by bombers. I don't bother with defensive armies.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:17.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team