View Poll Results:
Politics: Frontier 0 0%
Politics: Democratic 17 28.33%
Politics: Fundamentalist 2 3.33%
Politics: Abstain 0 0%
Economics: Simple 0 0%
Economics: Free Market 7 11.67%
Economics: Planned 2 3.33%
Economics: Green 12 20.00%
Economics: Abstain 0 0%
Values: Survival 0 0%
Values: Power 1 1.67%
Values: Knowledge 16 26.67%
Values: Wealth 3 5.00%
Values: Abstain 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old March 6, 2003, 16:54   #31
Maniac
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyPolyCast TeamACDG3 Spartans
 
Maniac's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Gent, Belgium
Posts: 10,712
That's the plan indeed. Populate Egregion with only military specialists and technicians. This allows to build as much offensive aircraft as we want, as long as they have clean reactors.
__________________
Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)
Maniac is offline  
Old March 6, 2003, 17:30   #32
Method
ACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 GaiansACDG3 MorganACDG3 SpartansAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNs
Emperor
 
Method's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,783
so i see nobody has come up with a valid reason for voting for green. why then? why?
Method is offline  
Old March 6, 2003, 19:25   #33
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by TKG
so i see nobody has come up with a valid reason for voting for green. why then? why?
There really isn't a valid game-based reason, unless one is operating on false assumptions/data (for example that +2 Effic is ever better than +2 Econ)...

There's plenty of RP reasons, like the damaging of the environment or the oppression of the poor... I can find ways to kill all ED, and to placate all the drones, but that doesn't make the RP guys happy, as they generally have non-game definitions of "damaging the environment" and "the poor".

Then there's the "Must Crush Capitalism" party, which should be fairly self explanatory
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 6, 2003, 20:01   #34
Voltaire
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessNever Ending StoriesC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansACDG The Human Hive
King
 
Voltaire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,568
Quote:
Originally posted by TKG
so i see nobody has come up with a valid reason for voting for green. why then? why?
Itís mainly RP; some of us here are just sentimentalist hippies who wish to save the environment and crush the evils of big business.
__________________
You can only curse me to eternal damnation for so long!
Voltaire is offline  
Old March 6, 2003, 20:04   #35
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
Itís mainly RP; some of us here are just sentimentalist hippies who wish to save the environment and crush the evils of big business.
Exactly, and screw the game advantages, it's not like we can lose this game if we tried ... I vote FM because I just like the game advantages, and am not *that* opposed to capitalism.
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 6, 2003, 20:57   #36
MrWhereItsAt
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayAlpha Centauri PBEMSpanish CiversCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontPtWDG2 Latin LoversACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansC3CDG The Lost BoysCivilization III Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
Deity
 
MrWhereItsAt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
Dammit! This Director of Peacekeeping Operations wants the corporate sponsorship money - else why do you think we have all those close-ups of the P4PSI logo on the wings of our Needlejets shown on the holo-news?

I have expensive sun-glasses and cigars to buy here people! How else can I be a General?!?!?

/me plans firing tests and mind-worm psych experiments near Greeny communes
__________________
Consul.

Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!
MrWhereItsAt is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 00:24   #37
Kirov
Prince
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 910
IIRC, atrocities forbiddance is held mostly for RP reasons, but noone sees any problem with that. What if nerve staple in, let's say, Aurrilion or JV would be allowed by Police rating and was beneficial at the same time? Should I assume that most FMers would vote yea?

What if Fundamentalism was beneficial for some time? Are we so democratic merely because Demo settings are better than those of Fundie? What if Fundie had had +2 ECON bonus?
Kirov is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 00:34   #38
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirov
IIRC, atrocities forbiddance is held mostly for RP reasons, but noone sees any problem with that. What if nerve staple in, let's say, Aurrilion or JV would be allowed by Police rating and was beneficial at the same time? Should I assume that most FMers would vote yea?
Two problems with your analogy: one, it's quite a stretch to say FM is as bad as nerve stapling; two, the benefits of FM are far greater than the benefits of nerve stapling. Btw, I'm not arguing that RP isn't a valid reason to refuse something, I'm just saying that it's about all the ground the Greenies really have.

Quote:
What if Fundamentalism was beneficial for some time? Are we so democratic merely because Demo settings are better than those of Fundie? What if Fundie had had +2 ECON bonus?
If Fundie had a +2 ECON bonus I'd be all over it ... in fact I'd go fundie if it were even on par with Demo in the game... but Firaxis doesn't like fundamentalism, so it sucks in the game
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 09:23   #39
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by TKG
now, i'd like to hear some good reasons to run green over free market, without this turning into another "Archaic Vs Everyone" thread please.
OK, here is a reply I gave earlier on the pros of Green, and a high Planet rating:
Quote:
Originally posted by Drogue in 1st Internal Affairs Office
If we have a low Planet rating, we make psi-combat much harder, which although not a big negative during war, is a big negative for exploration. If we have a high Planet rating, we hardly need worry about MW or IoDs.

If we have a low Planet rating, we have more eco-damage now, and at the moment former time is at a premium - we need to terraform places to crawl, and new bases - so we don't have time to keep formers in cities just in case of a pop. With a high Planet rating, and low eco-damage, we can relax about pops.

With a low Planet rating (and thus more eco-damage) we create more ice-cap melting, which means we need to build pressure domes, and even then we lose much population from a base losing its land. With a high Planet rating this is much less the case. And yes, I know we can launch a solar shade, but that has to be agreed with other factions (that have much different agendas) and we have to have the technology to do it. Even not using FM, with a high Planet rating, it is quite possible to get problems with ice caps melting, so with a low Planet rating, it could prove very problematic.

If we have a high Planet rating, then we can capture MW and IoDs, which is incredibly usuful both for exploration (units for free) and for war. I've before managed to win a war just using captured units, while concentrating on my infrastructure. With a low Planet rating this is not possible.

I'm not against FM idealistically, hell I'm a Economics student, I'm believe in real life FM is the best option. But even without the negative police effects, I think FM in SMAC is not the best option.
At the moment, we need growth, so Planned is a very good option (easy pop-boom), but later on Efficiency and Planet are more important, so I would propose a switch to Green. Not having FM isn't my priority, neither is having Green, what I want is a higher Planet rating, and less eco-damage.
I don't want us to only start thinking about the Environment when we start getting the ice caps melting, or major worm-rape. Prevention is better than cure, if we start looking after Planet now, we won't have a problem later, and have to cut our production at a crucial time. If we have pops, spread them out slowly, if we have a low Planet rating then we'll suddenly be hit by many pops, until we get enough clean minerals to stop it.

And even if it was easier (which for you it may well be), this is only Thinker, we are going to win, but we should be judged on how we win. Not how many points we have, but what state is Planet in when we win. We can win harvesting as many minerals as possible, having genejack factories and robotic assembly plants, using FM, planting many Boreholes and wrecking this Planet, both for Planet and for us; or we can win with a beautiful Planet, with wonders for us all to enjoy, with a life or harmony and happiness, and by Transcending with Planet.

Even without taking into account the in-game effects, we have a duty to look after this Planet which we have landed on. We have no right whatsoever to invade it and wreck it for our personal wealth. What is wealth after all, it is having 'things', having a comfortable life. That is what I want, comfortable in terms of needs, in terms of wants, and mostly in terms of happiness. Can we be happy living in a pollution wrecked Planet?

Far from providing no argument for Green and looking after Planet, I have provided much argument, the fact you wish not to hear it masks what you see. I have yet to hear an argument for not caring about Planet, nor have I heard an argument for FM, other than 'we have overestimated the negative effect of FM'. No my friend, you have drastically underestimated what negative effect it has, on Planet, on law and order, on war, and on society.
Here is a quote from a more moderate position, taking from the STEP thread:
Quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker
True, FM increases the risk we run for global warming. But the rising of the seas is not inevitable, and careful management of ecodamage is possible and essential under FM just as it is under Green. You'll just see a higher ED number in FM (for a given amount of minerals or terraforming) than you would under Green, so need to be extra-cautious. Whatever our economic model, we'll need to be mindful of the overall ED numbers.
And here, in brief, are reasons to go Green:
Planet rating Ė MW control, helps psi-combat, helps reduce ED, reducing fungal pops and ice cap melting.
Efficiency Ė Helps equalise regional differences (by helping those further away from the capital that are worse affected by inefficiency) gives us the ability to choose more extreme positions (10:0:90 for example) and increases energy.
Appeasement of Deirdre, a very valuable ally, being that she is powerful, has many techs, and can be a great ally against Yang/Deirdre/Santiago (our most likely foes)

RP Arguments:
Equality of wealth among citizens. Yes itís an RP argument, but itís a big one. I want an equal, meritocratic society, which I fell cannot happen with FM. Planned is also too inefficient for me, and results in much wastage.
Green is sustainable. It helps to promote an economy that is viable in the long term. FM is not sustainable, in RP terms (baring in mind we donít know about Planet Flowering yet) because we are using up Planets resources at a faster rate than they are being created. Even with Synthetic Fossil Fuels, the burning of those harms the environment, and will end up creating global warming (extra production leading to ice caps melting).
Green gives us more control. We have efficiency, with a decentralised economy, while still not leaving us at the whim of Market forces. If we feel we have too much unemployment, we can have more government spending to create jobs, if consumer spending is creating large, unsustainable debts, we can raise interest rates (just two examples, obviously many things we can do)
What gives us the right to wreck Planet. We may be the most powerful species, but surely we have a duty to keep it habitable for our descendants?

We are going to win, whatever we choose, so RP arguments are important to me. I would rather win with an harmonious, peaceful, well-looked-after Planet, by Transcendence, but being more challenging and fun, than quickly and easily using FM. Indeed, I believe we should gain control as we intend to Govern, and since us gaining control is not an issue (we will win) I care far more about how we win, about what is a better society according to my principals and ideals, and what is best for the future of our race, than I care about what makes it easiest for us to win, and therefore, what the *best* option now is.

Planet is not for sale

Sorry for being so long winded, and I know much of this has been said before, but there was a call for reasos to vote Green, and I felt a need to give them. These are, of course, just my reasons, other people may have others.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 09:28   #40
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon
Two problems with your analogy: one, it's quite a stretch to say FM is as bad as nerve stapling; two, the benefits of FM are far greater than the benefits of nerve stapling. Btw, I'm not arguing that RP isn't a valid reason to refuse something, I'm just saying that it's about all the ground the Greenies really have.
At the risk of answering for Kirov, I don't think Kirov was arguing about atrocities, but that if we ban atrocities for purely RP reasons, why isn't it reasonable to choose Green purely for RP reasons? It's not all the ground, as my previous post will hopefully show, but that this argument has been done to death for those that have been here (and read the threads) a while. I can give you links to the STEP and STEP High Garden threads, along with other discussions about the merits of Green, both in-game and RP, but the'd take ages to read, and probably worked better in context. If you wish I will however (just don't say I didn't warn you )

Is economic growth that important? Is it worth the value of our future? Isn't sustainability, and the survival of Planet more important?

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon
If Fundie had a +2 ECON bonus I'd be all over it ... in fact I'd go fundie if it were even on par with Demo in the game... but Firaxis doesn't like fundamentalism, so it sucks in the game
Really? You'd go against our whole factional ethos just for some in game advantage? Let me ask you this. If we win by means against our ideals and our whole factional ethos, what was the point of us winning?
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 09:31   #41
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon
Exactly, and screw the game advantages, it's not like we can lose this game if we tried
Exactly I care more about how we win than how easily we win.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon I
vote FM because I just like the game advantages, and am not *that* opposed to capitalism.
Neither am I, I just think it needs to have environmental safeguards, and other checks in place. FM isn't just capitalism, it's pure, unrestrained capitalism. I favour a mixed economy, Capitalism, but with checks, especially environmental ones, hence I favour Green.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 09:48   #42
GeneralTacticus
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMPtWDG RoleplayNationStatesInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
GeneralTacticus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,851
Quote:
If we have a low Planet rating, we make psi-combat much harder, which although not a big negative during war, is a big negative for exploration. If we have a high Planet rating, we hardly need worry about MW or IoDs.
Exploration is now completely unnecessary, as we have satlleites, so that point is irrelevant.

Quote:
If we have a low Planet rating, we have more eco-damage now, and at the moment former time is at a premium - we need to terraform places to crawl, and new bases - so we don't have time to keep formers in cities just in case of a pop. With a high Planet rating, and low eco-damage, we can relax about pops.
The simple fact that we currently have a capitalist society which produces no pollution whatsoever effectively shoots that point out of the water too.

Quote:
With a low Planet rating (and thus more eco-damage) we create more ice-cap melting, which means we need to build pressure domes, and even then we lose much population from a base losing its land. With a high Planet rating this is much less the case. And yes, I know we can launch a solar shade, but that has to be agreed with other factions (that have much different agendas) and we have to have the technology to do it. Even not using FM, with a high Planet rating, it is quite possible to get problems with ice caps melting, so with a low Planet rating, it could prove very problematic.
1) See above.

2) Even if we do produce a bit of ED, this won't necessarily cause global warming. You need x amount of pop within y turns for that, and as long as this does not occur, we're safe.

Quote:
If we have a high Planet rating, then we can capture MW and IoDs, which is incredibly usuful both for exploration (units for free) and for war. I've before managed to win a war just using captured units, while concentrating on my infrastructure. With a low Planet rating this is not possible.
Nor is it in the slightest bit necessary.

Quote:
I'm not against FM idealistically, hell I'm a Economics student, I'm believe in real life FM is the best option. But even without the negative police effects, I think FM in SMAC is not the best option.
In sipte of the fact that it currently has no downsides whatsoever?

Quote:
I don't want us to only start thinking about the Environment when we start getting the ice caps melting, or major worm-rape. Prevention is better than cure, if we start looking after Planet now, we won't have a problem later, and have to cut our production at a crucial time. If we have pops, spread them out slowly, if we have a low Planet rating then we'll suddenly be hit by many pops, until we get enough clean minerals to stop it.
None of this is a matter of any concern, due to there ebign no pollution.

Quote:
And even if it was easier (which for you it may well be), this is only Thinker, we are going to win, but we should be judged on how we win. Not how many points we have, but what state is Planet in when we win. We can win harvesting as many minerals as possible, having genejack factories and robotic assembly plants, using FM, planting many Boreholes and wrecking this Planet, both for Planet and for us; or we can win with a beautiful Planet, with wonders for us all to enjoy, with a life or harmony and happiness, and by Transcending with Planet.
Pollutino is not in any way necessary to FM, as evidenced by the current in-game situation.

Quote:
Even without taking into account the in-game effects, we have a duty to look after this Planet which we have landed on. We have no right whatsoever to invade it and wreck it for our personal wealth. What is wealth after all, it is having 'things', having a comfortable life. That is what I want, comfortable in terms of needs, in terms of wants, and mostly in terms of happiness. Can we be happy living in a pollution wrecked Planet?
False dilemma. The choice is not between being wealthy on a dead planet, or comfortable on a healthy one - it's between being wealthy and poor on exaclty the same planet.

Quote:
Planet rating Ė MW control, helps psi-combat, helps reduce ED, reducing fungal pops and ice cap melting.
None of which is at all necessary.

Quote:
Efficiency Ė Helps equalise regional differences (by helping those further away from the capital that are worse affected by inefficiency)
Which is counter-productive, as it reduces the energy fed into bases with single-base SPs, thus making us worse off, and means we have to build more facilities to get the same results.

Quote:
gives us the ability to choose more extreme positions (10:0:90 for example)
Which, again, is completely unnecessary.

Quote:
and increases energy.
In comparison with +2 ECON, it actually reduces it enormously.

Quote:
Appeasement of Deirdre, a very valuable ally, being that she is powerful, has many techs, and can be a great ally against Yang/Deirdre/Santiago (our most likely foes)
In in-game terms: nope. She is not a partciularly valuable ally. What does she have to offe rus?

In RP terms: Yuo're adocating an alliance with her why, exactly? Have you ever bothered to examine the structure of her society? It has actually regressed since Planetfall, being effectively a Green theocracy. Why should we ally ourselves to such a tyrant?

Quote:
Equality of wealth among citizens. Yes itís an RP argument, but itís a big one. I want an equal, meritocratic society, which I fell cannot happen with FM.
A society cannot be both equal and meritocratic at the same time. If it is meritocratic, it must recognize that some ahve more merit than others, and hence accept inequality accordingly.

[quote]Green is sustainable. It helps to promote an economy that is viable in the long term. [/qupte]

It creates an economy which can exist perpetually, but at what cost? In order to do so, it prevents change and growth.

Quote:
FM is not sustainable, in RP terms (baring in mind we donít know about Planet Flowering yet) because we are using up Planets resources at a faster rate than they are being created. Even with Synthetic Fossil Fuels, the burning of those harms the environment, and will end up creating global warming (extra production leading to ice caps melting).
No, it doesn't; if that were true, we'd be seeing ecodamage, but we aren't. Also note that most of our power is generated by Fusion Reactors anyway, which are clean and effectively permanent.

Quote:
Green gives us more control.
Why should anybody have 'control' of our economy?

Quote:
We have efficiency, with a decentralised economy, while still not leaving us at the whim of Market forces.
You really love to rant about 'market forces', don't you? Has it ever dawned on you that they are not malignant, outside entities trying to destroy us, but that they are the manifestation of the choices of the entire population?

Quote:
If we feel we have too much unemployment, we can have more government spending to create jobs, if consumer spending is creating large, unsustainable debts, we can raise interest rates (just two examples, obviously many things we can do)
Both of which are perfectly possible under FM, in case you haven't noticed.

Quote:
What gives us the right to wreck Planet.
Nothing, but that's not what we're doing.

Quote:
We may be the most powerful species, but surely we have a duty to keep it habitable for our descendants?
Oh, indeed. We have a responsibility to give our descendants a future beyond servitude to your arbitarily proclaimed limits on what is and isn't good for the planet.

Quote:
We are going to win, whatever we choose, so RP arguments are important to me. I would rather win with an harmonious, peaceful, well-looked-after Planet, by Transcendence, but being more challenging and fun, than quickly and easily using FM. Indeed, I believe we should gain control as we intend to Govern, and since us gaining control is not an issue (we will win) I care far more about how we win, about what is a better society according to my principals and ideals, and what is best for the future of our race, than I care about what makes it easiest for us to win, and therefore, what the *best* option now is.
The fact that FM is the best optino now is precisely why we should use it. If, in the future, the best optino changes, we should it; it's as simple as that.

Quote:
At the risk of answering for Kirov, I don't think Kirov was arguing about atrocities, but that if we ban atrocities for purely RP reasons, why isn't it reasonable to choose Green purely for RP reasons?
Because:

1) Atrocities ar ejust that, atrocities;

2) Atrocities bring in none of the benefits of FM, and they create huge downsides.

Quote:
Is economic growth that important? Is it worth the value of our future? Isn't sustainability, and the survival of Planet more important?
False dilemma, again. FM is not in the least bit incompatible with sustainability, and (as current conditions show) it is not incompatible with a clean planet either.

Quote:
FM isn't just capitalism, it's pure, unrestrained capitalism.
No. FM is jus tthat: a free market. Unrestrained capitalism does not deliver a free market, hence it is not a free market.

Quote:
I favour a mixed economy, Capitalism, but with checks, especially environmental ones, hence I favour Green.
What you're actually advocating is a system of needless rules and regulations that kill economic progress for now gain whatsoever.
GeneralTacticus is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 10:19   #43
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Is economic growth that important? Is it worth the value of our future? Isn't sustainability, and the survival of Planet more important?
We can sustain FM, it does take effort but it's well worth it. Planet's doing just fine, too, hasn't made much of a peep at us for a while.

Quote:
Really? You'd go against our whole factional ethos just for some in game advantage? Let me ask you this. If we win by means against our ideals and our whole factional ethos, what was the point of us winning?
I think you misunderstood me: I'd prefer to use Fundamentalism because I like the idea better than Democracy... and I could stand for Fundy on RP grounds if I wanted to... but the game models Democracy as much better, so I typically choose Demo. As for against our factional ethos... well, the whole "Democracy Game" thing does give a hint, but if we have the option (unlike police state) I think it's at least compatible. Doesn't matter though, we're staying Demo til the end of the game.
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 13:53   #44
Kirov
Prince
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 910
Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon
Because:

1) Atrocities ar ejust that, atrocities;

2) Atrocities bring in none of the benefits of FM, and they create huge downsides.
I'm glad that atrocities don't bring any significant bonuses. You with Cedayon would have been first to nerve staple me and I would have had to seek asylum in the Hive faction...

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedayon

I think you misunderstood me: I'd prefer to use Fundamentalism because I like the idea better than Democracy... and I could stand for Fundy on RP grounds if I wanted to... but the game models Democracy as much better, so I typically choose Demo. As for against our factional ethos... well, the whole "Democracy Game" thing does give a hint, but if we have the option (unlike police state) I think it's at least compatible. Doesn't matter though, we're staying Demo til the end of the game.
Frankly speaking, I'm rather dissapointed (not to mention astonished), but maybe I misunderstand you; could you elucidate your pro-fundie stance little further?


BTW, as for me, it does matter why we will stick to Demo until the end...
Kirov is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 14:18   #45
Maniac
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyPolyCast TeamACDG3 Spartans
 
Maniac's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Gent, Belgium
Posts: 10,712
Drogue:

Quote:
A society cannot be both equal and meritocratic at the same time. If it is meritocratic, it must recognize that some ahve more merit than others, and hence accept inequality accordingly.
I have to agree with GT. Either you want equality and you support communism/Marxism/whatever, or either you want a meritocracy and then you support a free market with a strong enough government to provide equal chances, rules & regulations, and checks & balances.

GeneralTacticus:

Quote:
What you're actually advocating is a system of needless rules and regulations that kill economic progress for now gain whatsoever.
Please...
__________________
Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)
Maniac is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 14:20   #46
Maniac
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyPolyCast TeamACDG3 Spartans
 
Maniac's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Gent, Belgium
Posts: 10,712
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirov
Frankly speaking, I'm rather dissapointed (not to mention astonished), but maybe I misunderstand you; could you elucidate your pro-fundie stance little further?
Yeah, I'm wondering too. Are you perhaps a christian who believes in absolute truths and values?
__________________
Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)
Maniac is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 14:26   #47
Lemmy
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG3 Spartans
King
 
Lemmy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bubblewrap
Posts: 2,032
Quote:
Because:

1) Atrocities ar ejust that, atrocities;

2) Atrocities bring in none of the benefits of FM, and they create huge downsides.
Ey!
Don't bash atrocities like that, they aren't just atrocities, they are so much more then that, and their downsides are higly overestimated!
__________________
<Kassiopeia> you don't keep the virgins in your lair at a sodomising distance from your beasts or male prisoners. If you devirginised them yourself, though, that's another story. If they devirginised each other, then, I hope you had that webcam running.
Play Bumps! No, wait, play Slings!
Lemmy is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 15:30   #48
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Yeah, I'm wondering too. Are you perhaps a christian who believes in absolute truths and values?
Yep
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 17:16   #49
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Drogue:
I have to agree with GT. Either you want equality and you support communism/Marxism/whatever, or either you want a meritocracy and then you support a free market with a strong enough government to provide equal chances, rules & regulations, and checks & balances.
Sorry I didn't explain myself well. By equal, I mean equal opportunity. Everyone gets free education, and an equal start in life, not complete enforced equality. The latter is almost exactly my position. FM with rules and regulations To me, Green is closest to that. I am no Marxist, but I do not think it warrents dismissing, there are some important things that he brings up. In fact, I'm pretty much smack in the middle (which makes me right-wing for a student here )

GT: I'll reply more fully when I have time, but one quick point:
Quote:
Nor is it in the slightest bit necessary
Neither is all this extra Ec and Research. Come to think of it, what is becessary? I think MWs, Iods and Locusts are very useful.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 18:03   #50
Method
ACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 GaiansACDG3 MorganACDG3 SpartansAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNs
Emperor
 
Method's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,783
drug, sorry, but i can't be bothered to read long posts. maybe later when i have time and no, i'm not just backing out because i have nothing to say, but also, if i do reply to this, it'll make me as hated as i was back in the days of P4
Method is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 21:52   #51
GeneralTacticus
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMPtWDG RoleplayNationStatesInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
GeneralTacticus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,851
Quote:
Please...
'Kill' may be a bit strong, but ATM going Green would not bring in any benefits at all compared to FM.

Quote:
Sorry I didn't explain myself well. By equal, I mean equal opportunity. Everyone gets free education, and an equal start in life, not complete enforced equality. The latter is almost exactly my position. FM with rules and regulations To me, Green is closest to that. I am no Marxist, but I do not think it warrents dismissing, there are some important things that he brings up. In fact, I'm pretty much smack in the middle (which makes me right-wing for a student here )
What on earth is it that makes you think that Green is FM with regulations? Logically, if this were the case, there would be at least some bonus to the economy, yet there is none.

Quote:
Neither is all this extra Ec and Research. Come to think of it, what is becessary? I think MWs, Iods and Locusts are very useful.
When I said 'necessary', I meant 'useful enough to warrant going out of our way to get it'. Why do you consider native life forms so useful? They're far too easy to kill.
GeneralTacticus is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 21:53   #52
MrWhereItsAt
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GamePtWDG RoleplayAlpha Centauri PBEMSpanish CiversCall to Power Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy Game: Red FrontPtWDG2 Latin LoversACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessCivilization III PBEMC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansC3CDG The Lost BoysCivilization III Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton Team
Deity
 
MrWhereItsAt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: That's DR WhereItsAt...
Posts: 10,157
Has anyone had the thought that some of us are here NOT for the Roleplay but to improve their game and thus deliberately reducing our advantage is HIGHLY FRUSTRATING?

/me wishes there was an :eyebrowraise: smiley
__________________
Consul.

Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!
MrWhereItsAt is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 22:06   #53
Method
ACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 GaiansACDG3 MorganACDG3 SpartansAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNs
Emperor
 
Method's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Has anyone had the thought that some of us are here NOT for the Roleplay but to improve their game and thus deliberately reducing our advantage is HIGHLY FRUSTRATING?
apparently not...
Quote:
* MrWhereItsAt wishes there was an :eyebrowraise: smiley
i think i suggested one, but markos shot it down
Method is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 22:34   #54
Voltaire
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessNever Ending StoriesC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansACDG The Human Hive
King
 
Voltaire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,568
Quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Has anyone had the thought that some of us are here NOT for the Roleplay but to improve their game and thus deliberately reducing our advantage is HIGHLY FRUSTRATING?

* MrWhereItsAt wishes there was an :eyebrowraise: smiley
Even so if we remove the RP aspects form the game it becomes too dry, we have sent his happen in the past when parties dissipated. RP makes the game more interesting, and besides there is no one set best way to play SMAC. Simply because you believe it would reduce our advantage does not mean that everyone is in agreement, furthermore we already have such a HUGE OVERWHELMING ADVANTAGE that we cannot possibly loose, I donít believe a switch to Green impedes our advantage greatly (if at all).
__________________
You can only curse me to eternal damnation for so long!
Voltaire is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 22:35   #55
Method
ACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 Data AngelsACDG3 GaiansACDG3 MorganACDG3 SpartansAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNs
Emperor
 
Method's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,783
well how about this: if we run green now, can we switch back when we get digital sentience?
Method is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 22:39   #56
GeneralTacticus
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMPtWDG RoleplayNationStatesInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
GeneralTacticus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,851
Quote:
I donít believe a switch to Green impedes our advantage greatly (if at all).
It won't remove it, but it will signifcantly reduce it. Anyway, in RP terms, we should be doing everything possible to increase our advantage, for the sake of our people.
GeneralTacticus is offline  
Old March 8, 2003, 08:17   #57
GeneralTacticus
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMPtWDG RoleplayNationStatesInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
GeneralTacticus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,851
Quote:
I'm glad that atrocities don't bring any significant bonuses. You with Cedayon would have been first to nerve staple me and I would have had to seek asylum in the Hive faction...
Looks like you missed point 1).
GeneralTacticus is offline  
Old March 8, 2003, 12:28   #58
Drogue
staff
Alpha Centauri PBEMNationStatesACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG3 GaiansACDG The Human HiveACDG PeaceACDG3 SpartansACDG3 MorganACDG3 Data AngelsPolyCast TeamC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG3 CMNsACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Apolyton Knight (Off-Topic Co-Moderator)
 
Drogue's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford or Northampton, England
Posts: 8,116
Quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
What on earth is it that makes you think that Green is FM with regulations? Logically, if this were the case, there would be at least some bonus to the economy, yet there is none.
It does, in efficiency. It does not have the economy bonus, since it has regulations. Even a Planned system has an underlying market, it's just that it is careful controlled by the government.

Quote:
When I said 'necessary', I meant 'useful enough to warrant going out of our way to get it'. Why do you consider native life forms so useful? They're far too easy to kill.
They're free, IoDs are the only transports that can attack, and it helps defend against them, since it only takes a couple of Locusts to wipe out a bases defenses under FM.

Quote:
Has anyone had the thought that some of us are here NOT for the Roleplay but to improve their game and thus deliberately reducing our advantage is HIGHLY FRUSTRATING?
Yes, but I am not, therefore I vote and argue that way. If is highly frustrating for someone who RPs that people choose the best way, regardless of the RP consequences. We all argue and vote how we feel. Some of us are here to roleplay.

Quote:
It won't remove it, but it will signifcantly reduce it. Anyway, in RP terms, we should be doing everything possible to increase our advantage, for the sake of our people.
No, we should do what is best for our people in the long run. Sustainability. What is best for our people now could leave our future in jepody.
__________________
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something

"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Drogue is offline  
Old March 8, 2003, 12:55   #59
Cedayon
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
King
 
Local Time: 15:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,173
Quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
No, we should do what is best for our people in the long run. Sustainability. What is best for our people now could leave our future in jepody.
What indicates that our FM is not sustainable? Growth of the market (ie increase in per turn income) may slow as our bases reach development plateaus, but it seems fantastically unlikely that our income will actually go down significantly in the absence of a disaster (that would affect any market).

According to the game we aren't causing Planet enough harm for it to have a lasting effect (ie no ED), and our resources show no sign of drying up... most of our territory is one immense renewable resource: Forest.

We could sustain this for many thousands of turns if we so wished, only outside intervention could mess it up (and that, again, would mess any market system up).
Cedayon is offline  
Old March 8, 2003, 19:21   #60
GeneralTacticus
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameAlpha Centauri PBEMPtWDG RoleplayNationStatesInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
GeneralTacticus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:46
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: of Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 6,851
Quote:
It does, in efficiency. It does not have the economy bonus, since it has regulations. Even a Planned system has an underlying market, it's just that it is careful controlled by the government.
Why would regulations serve to icnrease efficiency and reduce economy? Regulations usually create inefficiency, because they impose extra operating costs.

Quote:
They're free, IoDs are the only transports that can attack, and it helps defend against them, since it only takes a couple of Locusts to wipe out a bases defenses under FM.
Not likely once we get the Neural Amplifier. Once we have that, combined with AAA... bring it on, mate, bring it on.

Quote:
No, we should do what is best for our people in the long run. Sustainability. What is best for our people now could leave our future in jepody.
In this case, no it isn't. FM does not cause any ED whatsoever, and the problems of resources running out is one we have to face under any system (and, as Cedayon pointed out, most of our resources come from Forest, which will last forever).
GeneralTacticus is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:46.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team