F3 Strong/Average/Weak - Page 3

BigFurryMonster · May 24, 2003, 04:22

Again, correct. Do you feel like running some tests...?

nbarclay · May 24, 2003, 20:27

A couple of my own experiments:

1) Catapults seem to be worth somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4 of a regular warrior in the strength calculations, possibly exactly 1/4 with the variation I saw accounted for by rounding error.

2) For purposes of strength calculations, what counts seems to be the current number of hit points remaining. Hit points units have lost due to damage but could get back if they healed seem to be irrelevant.

DaveMcW · May 25, 2003, 00:52

Catapult/Warrior
119/40 = Weak
120/40 = Average

Catapult = 0.27 Warriors

Warrior/20-Bombard-Catapult
42/40 = Weak
43/40 = Average

20-Bombard-Catapult = 1.3 Warriors

Warrior/100-Bombard-Catapult
106/20 = Weak
107/20 = Average

100-Bombard-Catapult = 6.6 Warriors

So the factor for bombard is:
Bombard / 15

I'm going to bed, I'll let someone else test firepower.

It might be better to multiply everything by 3, which gives an integer for all non-UUs and a nice decimal for catapults.

BigFurryMonster · May 25, 2003, 04:20

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMcW
Catapult/Warrior
119/40 = Weak
120/40 = Average

Hold on there. Did you have 30 cities to avoid paying Army Support Cost? Did the other civ have 10?

(this holds for Despotism - with Monarchy, you might need more)

DaveMcW · May 25, 2003, 10:08

This is in 4000BC. You have no upkeep if you have no cities.

BigFurryMonster · July 29, 2003, 08:49

I actually got:

1 Catapult = 0.2667 Warriors (= 4/15)

This agrees with your Bombard factor. After some more testing, I updated the formula for the Bombard value:

Unit Strength =

(Hitpoints / 3) *
(0.6 * Attack Value + 0.4 * Defense Value + Bombard Strength Value / 15) *
(1.01 if UU and CivSpecificAbilitiesOn)

Army Strength =

Sum (Unit Strengths) * (Factor depending on ArmySupportCost)

Units with no hitpoints (e.g. Catapults) are assumed to have 3 hitpoints for this calculation.

No effect have:

"Naval" ability
Rate of Fire Value
Movement Value
Bombard Range Value

Tiberius · July 30, 2003, 01:50

Great work!

Btw, are you sure the formula is correct for calculating strength of bombardment units? I mean, AFAIK artillery-type units don't have hitpoints, so (Hitpoints / 3) and thus the value of any bomb. unit's strength would always be 0

I suppose there are actually two different formulas, one for "normal" A/D units and one for artillery-type units. Either that or ~~bombardment~~ artilery-type units are always calculated as having hitpoints=3 (for the sake of calculating the unit's strength only).

Edit: it must be the second alternative, to make it possible to calculate the strength of ships with bomb. capabilities, who have both hitpoints and bomb. strength value.

BigFurryMonster · July 30, 2003, 03:18

You're correct. I added your "second assumption".

bongo · February 6, 2004, 05:11

*bump*

Now, why isn't this thread included in the 'Must read' section?

It may of course be because the formula isn't quite finished yet.

BigFurryMonster · February 9, 2004, 04:30

Because no one thought of doing that before.

The formula may or may not be finished - not everything has been tested, but it is pretty close.

bongo · February 9, 2004, 04:38

Only thing left is to find out how big that 'unitupkeepfactor' is.

Aqualung71 · February 10, 2004, 07:40

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay

Five hitpoints, unless one of the first two warriors destroys it, since its second victory would be guaranteed to get the tank promoted to elite. And "definitely" may be pushing it. 17x4 = 68, while 8x5=40. So if odds correspond roughly to those multiples (and I'm not sure to what extent they do), the tank probably has a chance at fending off all seventeen. Of course if the tank is fortified...

And then with the strong possibilty that when your tank gets redlined it retreats, the rest of the warriors won't be able to reach it!

vmxa1 · February 10, 2004, 14:36

I used DES to run 100 trials and the tank won only 10 times without bonuses. Given fort and hillls it got to almost dead even.

Of course in the game anything can happen, but in CivIII it is unlikely that any unit will win between 68-85 rounds. Maybe 89 counting 4 hp's for the tank.

bongo · February 11, 2004, 05:29

Whats DES? Some sort of a combat calculator?

Did some 'real' testing with a hotseat game btw, so far the results indicate that the UU factor is a bit low(my results suggest it should be around 1.03 rather than 1.01)

vmxa1 · February 11, 2004, 12:38

Yes, I got it either here or CFC in the utility section.

bongo · February 11, 2004, 13:45

Do you have a link or a complete name for it? I've tried finding it earlier without much success.

(All I've got is some perl script I wrote myself. Not exactly sophisticated stuff...)

Brundlefly · February 12, 2004, 15:22

Quote:

Originally posted by badams52

"You're letting our crack troops go to waste, sir. Let's go bonk some heads."

"All the world marvels at our superior intellect, sire."

Can't believe I still have some of them memorized.

I used to hear all the time "BUILD CITY WALLS!" Of course with the Civ2 AI so clueless there was rarely a need to have troops in a city let alone build city walls...

My favorite was the way that Elvis would always say "Oh yeah. Uh-huh." after the Science guy said something geeky.

vmxa1 · February 12, 2004, 17:40

http://mil-sim.net/

It is called Direct engagement Simulator.

Arnelos · February 13, 2004, 06:32

Threads like this are the reason Apolyton rocks.

Thanks, BFM.

Russian_King · February 14, 2004, 05:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

I liked the video animated advisors of CIV 2, with Elvis and Schwartzkopf look-a-likes. They never got boring.

hahaha me too "aha uhu"

yes indeed, WHERE DID THEY GO??? i seriously recommend sid meyer to put them back in. i still play civ 2 just for the sake of hearing what the advisors would say
I also think civ 2 advisors weremutch smarter! (both video and on map) civ 3 help SUCKS

BigFree · March 11, 2004, 22:21

I was looking for some info about research costs and I found a link to this thread in a thread posted by Theseus.

I just wanted to add that formula here is pretty close to what I tested for the ISDG team here at Apolyton. The only thing I would like to add is that the game looks at the relaitive defensive strengths of units on a particular turn when the computations are made. To put it simply; I found out that I can change the F3 values by simply moving a unit from a plains tile to a mountain, thereby increasing the units defensive value.

I just sort of stumbled onto it.

Jon Shafer · March 11, 2004, 22:40

Actually, I was the one to first discover it, you later tested it.

bongo · March 12, 2004, 03:48

That's interesting

So if you move a bunch of pikemen from plains to a fortress on a mountain you can go from weak to strong in a turn...

Jon Shafer · March 12, 2004, 14:36

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
That's interesting

So if you move a bunch of pikemen from plains to a fortress on a mountain you can go from weak to strong in a turn...

Depends on how big of an army you have compared to everyone else.

bongo · March 12, 2004, 14:45

Well, if your army was 100% pikemen, and you moved all to a mounaintop fort and fortified them you would get....3*(1+1+0.5+0.25)=8.25 defense...so a vet pike would go from 2.4 to 5.2 points...an increase of about 116% More than enough *if* your enemy was barely stronger than you.

BigFurryMonster · March 15, 2004, 06:47

Yes, that could happen.