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Old March 4, 2003, 22:28   #1
chequita guevara
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Has Bush Gone Mad?
Quote:
U.S. may reconsider Iraq war resolution


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Ron Fournier



March 4, 2003 | WASHINGTON (AP) -- With other nations' opposition hardening, the Bush administration left open the possibility Tuesday that it would not seek a United Nations vote on its war-making resolution if the measure was clearly headed for defeat.

U.S. troop strength in the Persian Gulf neared 300,000, and President Bush and his advisers were looking beyond the diplomatic showdown in the U.N. to make plans for a public relations buildup to potential war with Iraq.

One option under serious consideration was Bush giving Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein a final ultimatum, perhaps with a short-term deadline, in an address next week, two senior White House officials said.

The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, stressed that a variety of options are on the table and all depend on the outcome of a U.N. Security Council debate on the U.S.-backed war resolution. In a new blow, Russia's top diplomat said Moscow may use its veto against the measure.

Even without a veto from Russia, China or France, the United States still doesn't have the nine votes needed to win approval of the resolution, according to both supporters and opponents. Many undecided council members are looking for a compromise.

Secretary of State Colin Powell, in an interview with RTL television of Germany, said that early next week U.S. leaders would "make a judgment on whether it's time to put the resolution up to a vote." But he also said the United States was inclined to push for a vote "in the absence of compliance on the part of Saddam Hussein."

At the White House, spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "The vote is desirable. It is not necessary."

Once the vote is resolved one way or another, Bush will intensify his case for war, officials said, barring unforeseen events such as Saddam suddenly disarming or going into exile.

In addition to a possible address, they have discussed a presidential news conference and a Cabinet meeting as ways for Bush to communicate his plans to the nation next week. He may stop short of a specific ultimatum, officials said, but would make it clear that war is imminent in other ways, such as warning journalists and humanitarian workers to get out of Iraq.

Meanwhile, Bush telephoned leaders of India and Egypt to discuss his plans. And officials said Powell had had two telephone conversations and a one-on-one meeting in recent days with Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Ernesto Derbez in his search for Mexican support.

The Army's oldest armored division, "Old Ironsides," got its orders to head for the Persian Gulf, and Pentagon officials said U.S. land, sea and air forces were approaching 300,000 in the region.

Tommy R. Franks, the commander who would lead the war, met at the Pentagon with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and was to consult with Bush on Wednesday.

Still to be resolved was the military question of whether Turkey would allow its territory to be used for U.S. ground forces to open a northern front against Iraq.

At the White House, Fleischer said Turkey would lose a proposed $15 billion aid package unless it went along.

"The particular package that we've been talking to them about was predicated on assistance and cooperation in any plan for the use of force against Iraq," Fleischer said.

Until Tuesday, the spokesman had suggested part of the package would be available to Turkey regardless of whether 62,000 American troops are allowed in the country. White House officials said they were turning up pressure on Turkey in hopes that the parliament would grant the U.S. request on a second vote.

At the United Nations, meanwhile, Secretary-General Kofi Annan called Baghdad's destruction of missiles "a positive development," putting him at odds with Bush's assessment.

Russia's Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, renewing Moscow's opposition to quick military action, indicated Russia may use its veto against the U.S.-backed U.N. resolution.

Both developments further complicated Bush's efforts to win passage of the resolution, adding significance to talk of what the administration would do if U.N. opposition hardens.

"The president has made clear, that ... whether the United Nations votes or does not vote, that we will disarm Saddam Hussein with a coalition of the willing," Fleischer said. "We are proceeding with all the plans for the vote."

"Now, if you are asking me if all of a sudden support around the world crumbles and there is absolutely no one for it, I can't predict with metaphysical certitude every eventuality," Fleischer said.

U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte was asked whether the United States would withdraw the resolution if it didn't have the votes to pass it.

"We believe that support should be there and we're not facing that kind of situation; and I think we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it, but we don't think we should have to come to that point," he said.
The US can't get the nine votes it needs. We're not talking about a simple veto anymore. The US does not have UN support, period.

What will this do for nations that support us, like Britain and Spain? Will these governments still be able to give support to the US if Bush refuses to seek UN approval for his war of aggression? Will they fall? And what about countries that are important for the physical aspects of the invasion, like Saudi Arabia, which said that it only allow it's territory to be used if the UN approves of military action.

Is the Bush government really so completely out of touch with reality that they think they can get away with making enemies of the world? They are ignoring a major crisis on the Korean Peninsula in order to be able to attack Iraq. They managed to get lucky and nab a senior al-Qaeda leader, and kudos for that. But they're still ignoring the large base of a-Qaeada operatives in Pakistan, they're ignoring the source of funding for al-Qaeda from Saudi Arabia (which is still sending money!!!!).
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:30   #2
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:34   #3
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It would be absolutely hilarious if Hussein suddenly disarms at the last minute.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:35   #4
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
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I don't believe in suicidal adventurism. I'd rather do civil disobedience in America among my own people, where it might actually make a difference.

So, why don't you just put me on your ignore list, so you won't have to be challenged to think anymore. You can just go on believing what the President tells you (except when he's a Democrat).

Did the government lie during McCarthyism?
Did the government lie about the Vietnam war?
Did the government lie about Watergate?
Did the government lie Iran-Contra?
Did the government lie under Clinton?

If they've been lying for fifty years, why do you think they're telling the truth now?
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:38   #6
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Who cares about the UN? It's a sick joke. It's conference on disarmament was co-chaired by Iran and Iraq, and it's human rights commission is headed by Libya.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:41   #7
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The US can't get the nine votes it needs.

Who says that?
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:42   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Who cares about the UN? It's a sick joke. It's conference on disarmament was co-chaired by Iran and Iraq, and it's human rights commission is headed by Libya.
That's why New Zealand got rid of you. Good for them.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:43   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Who cares about the UN?
Most of the rest of the people on the planet seem to care about it, that's who. Nor does your question address any of the questions I raised. How will US refusal to continue persuing the matter affect other governments, whose support of the US is deeply unpopular with their own people and could only be sustained as part of a UN effort?


BTW, the Human Rights commission chairing was a deliberate snub to the US over its refusal to support Kyoto, the Land Mine ban, and it's withdrawl from the ABM treaty. It's not that anyone believes Libya is somehow a enlightened state.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:43   #10
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We have all gone mad. Rejoice in it. One day we will all be able to tell our grandchildren that we were around when all the world lost it's mind. That is if we are still alive to tell the tale.


Urban Ranger: How can he disarm if the US is lieing about all this and he isn't violating anything. Unless you think he is hiding things.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:43   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
The US can't get the nine votes it needs.

Who says that?
This article for one (AP).
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:44   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If they've been lying for fifty years, why do you think they're telling the truth now?
"The Government" is not a singular evil entity/personality. It's made up of people. Sometimes people lie, sometimes they tell the truth. Bush cannot gain much politically from this move, and considering he is a commited christian, I trust his honesty.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:45   #13
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I think we should make him get rid of every last weapon. Then attack.

It's a good strategy!
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:46   #14
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Bush has not gone mad.

Bush is mad.

Actually, did any of you watch Gretta van Susteren last night? She had the Iraqi ambassador on who said that Turkey would invade Iraq if it appeared that the territorial integrity of Iraq was coming unglued, meaning independence for the Kurds.

Later analysts said that the likelihood of Turkey seizing key Northern Oil Fields was "high."

WTF does this mean? Do we turn our guns on Turkey when the Iraqi's surrender?
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:47   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
I think we should make him get rid of every last weapon. Then attack.

It's a good strategy!
I'd be very happy with that strategy. Whatever makes it easier.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:48   #16
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This article for one (AP).

It says nothing of the sort. Rather, it says the US doesn't currently have those votes. Come on, che!
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:48   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Bush cannot gain much politically from this move, and considering he is a commited christian, I trust his honesty.
I wish we could have him committed. I don't trust Christians any more than I trust anyone else. I especially don't trust people who make a big show of their beliefs. Like Jeshua said, don't be like the hypocrites who shout their faith in public.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:49   #18
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You like like this is "News", Chegitz.
Our President said long, long ago,no matter who else involves themselves.

So go away. Go to Cuba. It's close by you.
You hate all about the USA so much, take David, and tear your ass.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:49   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned
WTF does this mean? Do we turn our guns on Turkey when the Iraqi's surrender?
Sure. Why not. I expect that anyway.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:49   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia


"The Government" is not a singular evil entity/personality. It's made up of people. Sometimes people lie, sometimes they tell the truth. Bush cannot gain much politically from this move, and considering he is a commited christian, I trust his honesty.


What? You were joking, weren't you?
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:51   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
Urban Ranger: How can he disarm if the US is lieing about all this and he isn't violating anything. Unless you think he is hiding things.
While the US and Iraq can't both be telling the truth about the situation, they can both be lying.

Hans Blix got a list of items unaccounted for. Iraq might slowly coming out with the documents and/or evidence for them. Like what they just did.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:51   #22
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I only ask that you guys don't burn the country up while im gone. It would be a shame to come back to burned city streets. Don't do their job for them.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:52   #23
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Yep. I guess che is mostly harmless, Sprayber.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:52   #24
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Well-said, Sprayber.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:54   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Most of the rest of the people on the planet seem to care about it, that's who.
Do you have any statistics to back that up?

Quote:
Nor does your question address any of the questions I raised. How will US refusal to continue persuing the matter affect other governments, whose support of the US is deeply unpopular with their own people and could only be sustained as part of a UN effort?
How about some examples of those countries, with some hard evidence of public opinion?
Anyway, in the end, the US has to do what is right for the US.
Quote:
BTW, the Human Rights commission chairing was a deliberate snub to the US over its refusal to support Kyoto, the Land Mine ban, and it's withdrawl from the ABM treaty.
Nice to see they take their Human rights commission seriously, and don't manipulate it merely to provoke the us.
Quote:
It's not that anyone believes Libya is somehow a enlightened state.
So we shouldn't take anything the UN does seriously. Glad you agree.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:54   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
This article for one (AP).

It says nothing of the sort. Rather, it says the US doesn't currently have those votes. Come on, che!
I misread your initial question.

There's another AP article about Turkey reconsidering a new vote to allow US troops onto Turkish soil. The Turks want to wait to put the second resolution before their parliament until after the UN approves of military action, think that it will gain support then. "The United States, aware that resolution might not pass, may not be prepared to wait that long and could abandon Turkey and ship troops and equipment instead to the Gulf where an invasion force is massing." That indicates that the US believes it may not be able to get the votes it wants.

On the flip side, is it possible the Turks don't want the US troops there because an Amerian presense might hinder Turkish military plans in Northern Iraq? Without the US around, the Turks would have a free hand in Kurdistan.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:58   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
You hate all about the USA so much, take David, and tear your ass.
Yup, love it or leave it. Guess, what, this is just as much my country as it is yours. I have every right to disagree with our insane and evil leader and I have a duty to try and stop him. We didn't elect him, but since he's in charge of our country, it's our responsibility to control him. I find "good Germans" to be the most contemptable of people. I will not sit around idly while my country and my planet needs me.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:58   #28
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I actually understand che's concerns. No goverment should be trusted completely. Our founding fathers didn't. But things must be done within the system. If you dont like bush then organize and try to get him out of office. But once you cross the line of the kind of defiance that some people(not necessarly che) wouldn't think twice about, you only do more harm than good.
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Old March 4, 2003, 22:59   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
Do you have any statistics to back that up?
Have you been paying any attention to the news or even the threads on this website which show that only in three countries in the world is there majority popular support for this war: the US, Israel, and Kuwait. Blair will fall.
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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Old March 4, 2003, 23:00   #30
Caligastia
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I wish we could have him committed. I don't trust Christians any more than I trust anyone else. I especially don't trust people who make a big show of their beliefs. Like Jeshua said, don't be like the hypocrites who shout their faith in public.
I'm not a Christian, but I respect many Christian ideals. One of them is honesty, and if Bush is truly devoted to his faith, then I find him more trustworthy.

As for "making a show of your faith", I don't think Bush has gone overboard in professing his faith. Perhaps you think he shouldn't mention it at all...?
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