The criminalization of opinion in Britain.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:01

On 25 February a 25 year old Greek student was arrested by the British anti-terrorist police in NewCastle.

The British Police didn't inform the Greek Consulate or his family. The matter became known though an article in a local british newspaper.

They charged him under their terrorist law of 2000 for possessing material that could "instigate, facilitate or execute terrorist acts".

He will be brought on "trial" on the 11 of March and the maximum penalty for his "crime" is 10 years in prison.

The terrorist material they talk about is books.
Books about the several militant groups in Europe.

Whether he was using these books to do his PhD as he claims or not is irrelevant.

He can face 10 years in prison because he had in his possetion books.

But the story doesn't end there.

That student believes that the group 17 November of Greece is not a terrorist organization but a resistance movement. He considers their killings as political acts.
According to reports he has never hidden his opinions.
He also congratulated 17N and said he wished he could join it.

The question that arizes is this.

Is in Britain, opinion a crime?

Does someone HAS to believe something or else he is a criminal?

Can Britain still be called a democracy? Since a defining aspect of democracy is the freedom of expression?

Az · March 7, 2003, 10:17

So, paiktis, when are you coming to Israel?

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:18

If money allows in a couple months. If not, this summer if there's no major tensions in the region.
But keep it on topic please.

Arrian · March 7, 2003, 10:19

Didn't you start a thread on this yesterday, Pattycakes?

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:20

I did but it was closed.
As said, please keep it on topic.

Jack the Bodiless · March 7, 2003, 10:20

He is a known terrorist sympathizer, by his own admission. How do you know that his "only crime" was to own a few books?

You don't!

DaShi · March 7, 2003, 10:21

So Paiktis, when are you coming to Britain?

Jack the Bodiless · March 7, 2003, 10:22

Of course, you're about to experience "the criminalization of opinion in Apolyton" anyhow...

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:23

It is a democratic right to have freedom of expression.

Do you think you can still be called a democracy if you don't?

His "crime" was to have books comes from what the British authorities let out and Greek sources.

Arrian · March 7, 2003, 10:24

Why not wait for the trial before flying off the handle? Perhaps the evidence that is to be presented there is more than just this guy's books, hmm?

-Arrian

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Why not wait for the trial before flying off the handle? Perhaps the evidence that is to be presented there is more than just this guy's books, hmm?

-Arrian

Don't you think his arrest was illegal in the first place?
Based only on books?

But in reality based on his opinions?

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:27

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
It is a democratic right to have freedom of expression.

Do you think you can still be called a democracy if you don't?

His "crime" was to have books comes from what the British authorities let out and Greek sources.

Blah blah blah blah.

Are you connected to this man, how do you know what he was or wasn't doing

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:28

From British and Greek sources.

The question is: is freedom of expression a crime in Britain?

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 10:29

Te UK doesn't have a constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech (or, indeed, any constitution at all), or unlimited freedom of speech.

It has codified laws which do not usually exclude free expression, but these are overridden in all cases of criminal conduct, such as, for example, terroristic acts.

Of course, if you don't like the laws in place, you can always move to another country.

MrBaggins

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:30

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
From British and Greek sources.

The question is: is freedom of expression a crime in Britain?

No and hasn't been for hundreds of years( well apart form porn)

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:30

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
Te UK doesn't have a constitution guaranteeing freedom of speech (or, indeed, any constitution at all), or unlimited freedom of speech.

It has codified laws which do not usually exclude free expression, but these are overridden in all cases of criminal conduct, such as, for example, terroristic acts.

MrBaggins

So why were they overridden in this case?

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:31

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger

No and hasn't been for hundreds of years( well apart form porn)

So why is a man arrested because of his opinions?
And why are there "laws" that permit that?

Ming · March 7, 2003, 10:31

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
I did but it was closed.
As said, please keep it on topic.

Yes... please stay on topic.

And yes, his thread on this topic yesterday was closed, and we had some very long discussions on the subject.

As I told him, there was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SUBJECT... But I did have a problem with how HE presented it.

The way he did it yesterday by simply ranting and calling Britain a Facist state in the title and in just about every post he made was a flame fest waiting to happen.

It seems like today, he has taken my advice and is only talking the issues and facts.

If is now no worse than the standard bash the US or bash the Euro theads...

If somebody turns this into a flame fest, they will be restricted, and that includes the threads starter as well...

So discuss the issues, and leave the flames else where.

CerberusIV · March 7, 2003, 10:32

This is the latest on the story in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827601.stm

It will all depend on whether they can prove (in a court of law - one of the elements of democracy) that he actively supported or incited terrorism. If they can then he is toast.

As for free speech in a democracy, it has limits and this story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

may give you a hint as to what they are.

DinoDoc · March 7, 2003, 10:33

Wonders when Ming will show up.

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 10:33

You said it yourself...

"They charged him under their terrorist law of 2000 for possessing material that could "instigate, facilitate or execute terrorist acts"

A court will decide if the governments case is valid.

The nation is free to make laws. If you don't like those laws, then you don't have to stay in the country. You cannot however, expect to stay, and just ignore them.

MrBaggins

Jack the Bodiless · March 7, 2003, 10:35

What tipped the police off?

I doubt that they're in the habit of raiding the homes of Greek students, just in case they find some interesting books.

So what did he do?

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV
This is the latest on the story in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2827601.stm

It will all depend on whether they can prove (in a court of law - one of the elements of democracy) that he actively supported or incited terrorism. If they can then he is toast.

Based on books and his opinions?

So anyone having his own opinion that doesn't pleases the UK is a criminal?

How is this democratic?
How was his arrest democratic?

Quote:

As for free speech in a democracy, it has limits and this story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

may give you a hint as to what they are.

It has limits in your flavour of "democracy".
In Greece every man is free to believe what he wants and express his believes. And I imagine this is so in most countries of Europe.

Ozz · March 7, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
On 25 February a 25 year old Greek student was arrested by the British anti-terrorist police in NewCastle.

That's what has been reported by ???

The BBC reported "articles" which does not mean just books (no books were mentioned) . Arrested on Thursday in court Tuesday seems like speedy justice to
me. (Get lawyers,evidence,court all lined up in 4 days)

That's something Greece could learn from, of course that
is also why Greek students are studing in Britain. I wonder how long they will continue to be able to if the
British find Greek terrorists are hiding in Britian as students. Easier to chuck them all out as to check each and every one of them in and out.

Your Anti-British rantings are no match for British character. Foiled again, paiktis22

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:40

It is illegal to support terrorism, do you disagree with that.

As for limits, is it legal in Greece to incite violence if so you live in a very dangerous country.

lightblue · March 7, 2003, 10:40

Quote:

Dousemetzis, who has lived in Britain for the past eight years, is accused of possessing articles which may be used in connection with the instigation, preparation or commission of an act of terrorism.

In English, articles isn't just writings, but could also mean a variety of unspecified material things (say bomb belts, uncommissioned pipebombs, bacteriological growth agar or any of those kind of things). I am not sure how much of this is a mistranslation on some Greek journalists part.

CerberusIV · March 7, 2003, 10:40

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
In Greece every man is free to believe what he wants and express his believes. And I imagine this is so in most countries of Europe.

Try walking down a main street in Athens wearing a placard saying "I support N17 and people who don't should be murdered" (in greek of course

) and see how long it takes for you to be arrested.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:40

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
You said it yourself...

"They charged him under their terrorist law of 2000 for possessing material that could "instigate, facilitate or execute terrorist acts"

A court will decide if the governments case is valid.

The nation is free to make laws. If you don't like those laws, then you don't have to stay in the country. You cannot however, expect to stay, and just ignore them.

MrBaggins

By this logic Saudi Arabia has the right to whip people for having extramarital affairs.
Is this what you're saying?

Ozz, how is his arrest legal on the first place?

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 10:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
What tipped the police off?

I doubt that they're in the habit of raiding the homes of Greek students, just in case they find some interesting books.

So what did he do?

Its interesting to theorize... maybe he hangs out with known terrorist sympathizers... maybe he sends checks to known terrorist organizations... maybe he's been talking on chatrooms about blowing up buildings or planes... maybe he's been taking photographs of military installations.

Theoretically, not all evidence in the case will be publicly released, so as not to compromise other ongoing investigations.

MrBaggins

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by lightblue

In English, articles isn't just writings, but could also mean a variety of unspecified material things (say bomb belts, uncommissioned pipebombs, bacteriological growth agar or any of those kind of things). I am not sure how much of this is a mistranslation on some Greek journalists part.

Yet both British and Greek sources confirm that they are: books.

Is having books and an opinion that doesn't agree with the established British one enough to get you arrested in Britain?