The Chronicle of Apolyton - Page 3

notyoueither · March 12, 2003, 20:13

Trip, how sure are you that you would not slip up and reveal information while in chat environments?

Would you be willing to observe a self imposed restriction against discussing this game with anyone til it is over? Do you feel you could keep it?

Jon Shafer · March 12, 2003, 20:18

Yes, of course. The only time I would discuss DG matters would be in 'my' thread in each forum, where I could ask questions, propose material to be published, etc. Other than that, I would not discuss the game.

HarryH · March 12, 2003, 21:02

I like it. This proposal sounds similar to an idea I had (but never did anything with) when the ISDG game was being formed. Trying to put together a history after the game is over would be a large task and probably wouldn't be very complete. An independent historian can collect information as the game progresses and draw links between what may appear to be independent events. "At xxBC team A did something while team B did this. Little did they know the far-reaching affects these simple actions will have."

My only concern is when is a good time to publicly release information. I contend that a lot of information could not be made public while the game is still going. Even a little agreement like "for the next 10 turns team X and Y will..." can have affects that last long past the term of the agreement and making it public will change the affects. The full chronicle should be kept secret until the end of the game. At most, some well scrubbed excerpts could be periodically published.

HarryH · March 12, 2003, 21:06

ND -- maybe you could assign someone on your team to be a team historian who could periodically prepare info to send to Trip as well be a contact for any questions Trip may have. Trip would decide how to use the information in the Chronicle. It wouldn't be quite the same as Trip doing the research himself but it would be better than nothing.

The same could be done for any team that is unwilling to give Trip access to their forums.

Wittlich · March 12, 2003, 21:19

Good points Harry - but I don't think that it would work out for the best. If the Historian (Trip) doesn't have full access to all of the teams forums, his (Trip's) recollection of the history involved might be viewed as one-sided, since he had to basically rely on information given to him and did not "see" (ie, read) it with his own eyes.

The information sent or given to the Historian could easily be considered as disinformation to hide the real debate/issue occuring within the team(s) forum in question.

Jon Shafer · March 12, 2003, 21:23

If teams are unwilling to give me access, then I will piece things together from what I can obtain from the other forums/teams, though the issues which are completely idependent of outside knowledge will not be able to be recorded.

Hot_Enamel · March 13, 2003, 06:39

My concern with allowing Trip into any of our forums, is that he is an active vocal kidder in this forum.
He seems to enjoy having a war of words, and kicking the boot in, when teams are down.
And similarly, we love to use him as the butt end of many of our jokes...expecting a humorous comeback every time.

By allowing him into our forums, we are effectively shutting this down.

Anything he says will be treated as suspicious..."Does he know it for real or is he having fun?"

Everything he says will now need to be authorized by a team. That team can effectively edit his speech to only include those items they don’t feel are sensitive.

Thus, Trip could become a psudo propaganda tool for many teams.

Sure Trip may decide he would rather not say anything at all if he believes teams are only allowing him to present distorted facts. But how does this keep
him within the game ? He will effectively be shut down.

There are certain dirty little secrets within GoW (and I assume within every team) that we will never let out. Not until after we have won the game. Without explaining the "Secret", all of our actions would be only half the picture if we allowed Trip to report on it. In fact, we would probably encourage Trip to report it, as it will hide any true meaning for any action we take.

I would rather see him join another team, and keep him involved this way. Shutting down his jesting would be a great shame.

Regs

Now, .....I will let you all ponder what our dirty secrets are ???
Or has this just been a propaganda statement for the GoW recruitment office ?

Examples of some long term team secrets that the GoW have discovered are:
Vox have a win strategy of selling cities to defeated teams and then destroying them.
GS are actually a phantom Civ, and don’t really exist.
The GoW are actually a builder team
The Lego's are actually a warmongering team
ND are actually Americans pretending to be Germans.
Lux still has a settler hiding on Bob
The RP team consists of only 1 member, who has a multiple personality disorder (It is believed that he is winning all of his teams internal PBEM's

)

Thrumble · March 13, 2003, 07:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Wittlich
Good points Harry - but I don't think that it would work out for the best. If the Historian (Trip) doesn't have full access to all of the teams forums, his (Trip's) recollection of the history involved might be viewed as one-sided, since he had to basically rely on information given to him and did not "see" (ie, read) it with his own eyes.

The information sent or given to the Historian could easily be considered as disinformation to hide the real debate/issue occuring within the team(s) forum in question.

And this is different from actual Historians in what way?

I think we should consider Trip as our in-game Homer or Jocephus. A non-game playing Historian who writes histories as he sees them, maybe they are neutral, maybe they biased. It should be up to each team to allow him access or not, tis likely those that do will receive more favorable treatment in his histories than those that choose not to. But each team should be allowed to make their own decision and not forced to open their forum against their wishes because a few of the other teams think they should.

alva · March 13, 2003, 08:04

Quote:

Examples of some long term team secrets that the GoW have discovered are:
Vox have a win strategy of selling cities to defeated teams and then destroying them.
GS are actually a phantom Civ, and don’t really exist.
The GoW are actually a builder team
The Lego's are actually a warmongering team
ND are actually Americans pretending to be Germans.
Lux still has a settler hiding on Bob
The RP team consists of only 1 member, who has a multiple personality disorder (It is believed that he is winning all of his teams internal PBEM's )

Quote:

I think we should consider Trip as our in-game Homer

I'm no even going to advantage of this one, waaaaaaay to easy

GhengisFarb™ · March 13, 2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrumble

And this is different from actual Historians in what way?

I think we should consider Trip as our in-game Homer ....

(Trip)-> "Mmmmmm, Donuts................."

"Doh! Stupid FlaNDers! Always making me raze my cities."

redstar1 · March 13, 2003, 10:58

mmmmmm razeins....

Jon Shafer · March 13, 2003, 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
My concern with allowing Trip into any of our forums, is that he is an active vocal kidder in this forum.
He seems to enjoy having a war of words, and kicking the boot in, when teams are down.
And similarly, we love to use him as the butt end of many of our jokes...expecting a humorous comeback every time.

By allowing him into our forums, we are effectively shutting this down.

Anything he says will be treated as suspicious..."Does he know it for real or is he having fun?"

You do realize, that I was 1st term President of the SPDG, spent much time setting the PTW DG up, ran my own team for 5 months, and am now Minister of War for the ISDG team?

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that despite my personality I know when to put forth a professional effort, and I realize what chaos a comment about the game might cause. Even the past couple days, I've wished I could say one thing or another to a couple people, but I have not, since I've already placed myself out of the game, and don't wish to have any impact upon its progress any more.

For all intents and purposes, I've muted myself from any comments for the past week.

Quote:

Everything he says will now need to be authorized by a team. That team can effectively edit his speech to only include those items they don’t feel are sensitive.

Thus, Trip could become a psudo propaganda tool for many teams.

Sure Trip may decide he would rather not say anything at all if he believes teams are only allowing him to present distorted facts. But how does this keep
him within the game ? He will effectively be shut down.

If a team protests what I report, then it will be delayed. Not muted. At the end of the game, everything will be released. I'm hoping that all of the teams realize what I'm trying to do here, and will not impede my progress for their own personal interests, but I cannot assume they won't, which may mean the chronicles won't be released until the end of the game. However, that is something that both myself and also many others who have already agreed are willing to accept.

Quote:

There are certain dirty little secrets within GoW (and I assume within every team) that we will never let out. Not until after we have won the game. Without explaining the "Secret", all of our actions would be only half the picture if we allowed Trip to report on it. In fact, we would probably encourage Trip to report it, as it will hide any true meaning for any action we take.

They would have to be reviewed. This is why I cannot report anything that is "fed" to me by the teams... if it's released any time soon, then it could distort things, and affect the game. I would rather just wait until the end of the game to release my work than to have this occur.

Quote:

I would rather see him join another team, and keep him involved this way. Shutting down his jesting would be a great shame.

I'm glad you've enjoyed my personality, but I can effectively say that I will never be joining another team for the rest of the game.

Jon Shafer · March 13, 2003, 12:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrumble
And this is different from actual Historians in what way?

I think we should consider Trip as our in-game Homer or Jocephus. A non-game playing Historian who writes histories as he sees them, maybe they are neutral, maybe they biased. It should be up to each team to allow him access or not, tis likely those that do will receive more favorable treatment in his histories than those that choose not to. But each team should be allowed to make their own decision and not forced to open their forum against their wishes because a few of the other teams think they should.

It is the goal of historians to achieve complete accuracy in their work. Since we have an opportunity to do that there I feel it's one we should take. If teams disagree, then I will have to fill their part of the story in the best I can get from other teams.

UnOrthOdOx · March 13, 2003, 14:14

Trip,

I for one would like to see this happen, and am truly sad that I had not thought of it before the game ever started. I think it would have been more welcome idea then than it is now. A group of 3-5 impartial people to compile histories from all the teams would have added so much to this game, even if it was only realeased at the very end.

alva · March 13, 2003, 16:58

Before the game started, I asked Catt to do this, he couldn't due to not having enough (free) time

. The other one I suggested, joined the team

Jon Shafer · March 14, 2003, 23:10

So what progress (if any) has there been within the teams on this issue?

ZargonX · March 15, 2003, 02:00

As I said, Lego has approved your request. So, that's one official answer!

vondrack · March 15, 2003, 06:06

Quote:

Originally posted by ZargonX
As I said, Lego has approved your request. So, that's one official answer!

Yes, the official poll in Legoland ended up with 5 votes in favour and two abstains. Nobody was against letting Trip in. So once there is a solid "rulebook" published saying what he is allowed and what he is not, I will authorize him to our forum immediately.

Trip, would you care putting something together?

Jon Shafer · March 17, 2003, 02:10

Okay, I'm going to try and write up an official document for the teams to accept or deny tomorrow. Agreement with the terms in the document will be on a team-by-team basis, meaning that not all the teams have to ratify it for it to take effect with the teams in agreement.

History Guy · March 17, 2003, 21:10

Senor Trip,

Good sir,

If you are given the position of official historian of the entire world, I should like to see you have some help in your research of our most ancient roots.

You see, sir, I am a mild mannered Squid baron and multi-millionaire from the town of Madrid, but I am also a famed scholar in my own country (as well as a philosopher). I collect the mythos, and it is my task to delicately seperate fact from fiction in our collective historical landscape. I was going to write a book of Spanish history, but as you are taking on the monumental task, Senor, of writing the entire history of the world, I thought I might persuade you to accept my assistance as...an assistant.

I have full notes prepared on the mythos of Spain and its ancient kings, which I would be glad to work into a book for your monumental multi-volumed historical epic...thing.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Squid Baron and Scholar of Madrid

Jon Shafer · March 23, 2003, 01:55

Sorry it took so long. Been busier than I'd prefer.

Quote:

So that Trip may be allowed to become official Historian of the Apolyton Play the World Democracy Game, the following is to be ahered to:

Trip shall:

Never disclose matters relating to one team to another team or person, unless this information has already been identified as releasable by that team. In discussions, no "hints" or "clues" will be suggested that might imply any sort of sensitive information.
Never post in a team's forum besides one thread which is to be used for the express purpose of verifying or questioning events relating to that team.
Write an unbiased and objective view of history as it unfolds, favoring no side, and focusing only upon relevant events of the game.

The teams in agreement shall:

Allow Trip access to their private forums for purposes of acquiring and documenting information.
Never restrict access or hide any information from Trip.
Answer any questions that Trip may have about the team or particular events unfolding.

No information in the Historian's Chronicle will be revealed until the sections relating to each team in question are reviewed. Should this mean that the Chronicle in its whole may not be released until the end of the game, that is how it shall be.

Please vote/agree/whatever so that I may be able to get started ASAP. Lots of things going on right now, and getting things recorded as quickly as possible should be a priority.

Let me remind the teams that this document is on a team-by-team basis. Not every team has to agree to it for it to take effect. If teams are against this and do not ratify the agreement, that is for them to decide.

For the teams which agree, I look forward to working with you to get things recorded.

Edit: Couple additions.

vondrack · March 23, 2003, 03:13

Trip authorized into the private forum of Legoland.

GhengisFarb™ · March 23, 2003, 10:57

I'm starting to think no one will ever be allowed into the GoW forum..............

Togas · March 23, 2003, 16:28

Trip authroized to view the Roleplay forum upon his request (PM me). This is CONDITIONAL upon Trip promising to carry through with the above agreement.

--Togas