uck.. diplomacy sucks

egervari · March 12, 2003, 16:54

Why does all the races talk to you so much? I mean, it's not like it does anything anyway. I build a non-aggression back and then sign a trade research agreement in 3 or 4 turns and then they declare war. Wow, that was a waste of my time.. why not just declar war to begin with seeing as the previous agreements are void.

After a few turns of not doing anything, the process happens all over again. To be honest, it's just boring and I'd rather be less bored clicking the turn button.

SINISTER1974 · March 12, 2003, 18:07

Well depends what race you are and what race they are (some races just hate each other). Also depends if they think you are a threat ( to close to their system, both have colonies in same system, etc....).

I have a few of these types of problems happen to me once and awhile. But usually my diplomacy is pretty good. During my game now i have had 2 allies-1 from turn 15, and other from turn 43-and we are still close allies. Colonizing each others systems, trading tech, helping defend each others systems-and its tur 263 in my game now.

And have had 1 that was at war with me from turn 4-now suffers from food problems and his empire is dwendling away

And the cynoids are my friends, enemies, friends, enemies--back and forth.

So diplomacy isnt to bad--look at real life examples and then you decide which is worse lol.

Grumbold · March 13, 2003, 05:53

I only get these problems when I'm doing something against the interests of the race in question or they have an ally who is at war with me. Our general tendency is to like each other so we offer and accept trade, research, intelligence and non-aggression pacts. Then either I upset them or an ally of theirs requests they declare war.

Once you get a feeling for what races do and dont like it'll become a lot more transparent why these thigs are happening. Its not just random and capricious AI behaviour like some would have you believe.

egervari · March 13, 2003, 06:10

Well, this behaviour happened 3 times in the first 15 turns of the game. This, to me, is pretty random since I know you have to at least sit down with any person in the real world for a long time to really determine if you like them or not. I see no reason why one race can outright declare war on another just after developing warp drive.

Grumbold · March 13, 2003, 06:20

Sounds like something specific to your random map setup because that is very unusual. Races usually either like or hate you at the start and you have to actively work at it to shift their perception.

Mannamagnus · March 13, 2003, 07:24

Before the release of MoO3 I had high hopes of the diplomatic AI. Playing the game I have no clue why races keep declaring war on me or why they keep contacting me for appearently no reason.

I very much prefer the diplomatic options of SMAC.

darcy · March 13, 2003, 08:12

Quote:

Once you get a feeling for what races do and dont like it'll become a lot more transparent why these thigs are happening. Its not just random and capricious AI behaviour like some would have you believe.

Let me respond with a quote from Brad Wardell (GalCiv developer):

Quote:

In defense of fanboys everywhere..

Early on in the beta of our current game, during the "United Planets" security council meetings, civilizations would vote randomly on resolutions. This was place holder stuff until the AI for it could be put in.

But some of our fans would come up with impressively complex explanations as to why the AI voted a certain way. "Ah! You see, the Drengin were trying to psyche out the Arceans by voting in a way that seemed to go against their better interests.." when in reality it was just ulVote = rand()%5.

Of course, voting now has AI behind it and so the votes by the AI make more sense but we no longer get that cool "Ah! The Yor are sucking up to the Altarians by voting their way even though they're at war.." anymore.

In other words, there's nothing that unusual about IMOO. Fans tend to give something the benefit of the doubt.

Remember: Whenever something that doesn't make sense happens, wizards did it.

Hydro · March 13, 2003, 09:12

I’m not sure I agree. I’ve found the AI diplomacy model to be, with some exceptions, consistent. For instance, I was generally able to forge economic and research treaties with many races, but it is a tough go if our relations are neutral. I might get an in – maybe, mind you, and then that relationship might go south.

One thing that is well done is that the AI reacts to what you do. For instance, I’m at war with the two AI Ithkul races (nasty buggers). My relations with others who were at war with them was stable, then I started exterminating the Ithkul with my Silicoid Fleet of Death. Within a turn or two no less than three of the races at war with them sent me a **Thank You! (relations improving)** message. I also noticed that when I defend my ally’s worlds against aggression they call up every now and then to say **Thanks! (relations improving)**. I like this, and it shows the game designers put some thought into the diplomacy AI. Now, it could be random but it seems that the frequency of these rare events increases significantly after certain actions.

I have seen some on again/off again wars and some AI waffling, but these were with empires with a neutral or negative sympathy. This makes sense in a way – they can’t decide if they like me or not.

There have been some irrational moments, like when a +190 sympathy races asks me beseechingly to agree to a war (say what?), which I decline (duh!). I’ve only had one instance when a positive sympathy race (+50 or more) declares war. It is a little irritating to have the AI constantly ask for improved trade/research (do these things expire? Don’t know).

My only real gripe is that I can’t ask for certain things like: declare war on Empire X; ask to get me into the Senate (!!). SMAC’s model had some advantages in this regard.

CJM · March 13, 2003, 09:38

I've had an experience somewhat similar to Hydro's on the appropriateness of diplomatic stuff. A bill came up in the Senate to vote total war on an AI empire, which I simply failed to second. a turn or so later, I got a "Thank You" from the empire that was the subject of the bill. I laughed a bit; "Hey, Tachidi! Thanks for not voting to kick our gaseous backsides!"

C--

Grumbold · March 13, 2003, 09:49

Quote:

Originally posted by darcy

Let me respond with a quote from Brad Wardell (GalCiv developer):

Fortunately that is not the case with MoO3 based on the games I've played.

Like Hydro, if I'm attacking an enemy then his opponents will ring to congratulate me on my success. If I choose to obliterate the world from orbit rather than land ground troops one of them might object instead because they disapprove of "glassing". The use of the NBC buttons definitely impacts on some races like or dislike of you.

That's not to say that there aren't inconsistencies in the diplomacy. I'm sure its quite possible for there to be bugs that could lead to the war/peace/ally stutter that Egervari reports as well as explainable diplomatic reasons. Personally I've never tried to get another race to declare war on a third party but the option is certainly in the list. Its certainly something I saw a lot in Civ 3 where two of my allies would get into a fight. Both of them would be insisting I DoW the other and bounce me back into war every time I declared peace before they did.

darcy · March 13, 2003, 11:57

Quote:

Personally I've never tried to get another race to declare war on a third party but the option is certainly in the list.

Could you tell me where? I've been looking for it in vain. In one game my closest ally had a NA pact with my mortal enemy, and I was unable to make him cancel it. I tried it with "Fulfill Obligations", but that seemed to be something completely different.

Thud · March 13, 2003, 12:45

Perhaps it is because my only experience with the genre is Space Empire IV, in which your closest allies take apparant joy in declaring war upon you, but I don't think the diplomacy model is bad at all.

Hydro · March 13, 2003, 13:10

SE4 has this nasty hard-wired ‘feature’ where if you get too powerful everyone declares war on you, regardless of past history and previous alliances. In other words, there is no thought of cooperative victory or common goals – only realpolitique and a desire to tear the top dog down.

Then maybe it makes sense – just look at the US and our friends in France (sorry for the off topic, but it was a slow moving target)…

vmxa1 · March 13, 2003, 14:04

I never have that problem in SE as I attack everyone I see.

Ghostbear · March 13, 2003, 14:18

The feature is MEE Mega Evil Empire.

It kicks in once you have become so big that you are (as the AI says) gobbling up planets at will.

I think it does and doesn't make sense. Does because when you are so far ahead that you're bigger than any set of potential allies, the other races should either surrender or band together. You can set the victory conditions to award victory just after you attain MEE status.

Doesn't because its rare that ALL races have encountered one another so how could they all band together.

Anyway, I bought MOO hoping to replace SE IV (after countless 100s of hours), I'm thinking of starting and SE IV game tonight.

Hydro · March 13, 2003, 14:49

When I got SE4 Gold I was extremely impressed and I couldn't get enough of it. I happily played and tweaked races, and tried expansion and tech plans. The shine wore off, though, when I realized that a single expansion/defensive plan seemed to work every time and that many of the racial picks either didn't really matter or seemed to be unbalanced (like Organic). In short, the game became linear and it became boring for me.

Moo3 has been different. There was no instant love but a growing admiration. Even with its flaws it does have depth and I like that. I am coming to understand that there are varying levels of play from 1) just hit the turn button and slip into your own private coma to 2) micromanage everything and have each turn take an hour - and which you choose is the Emperor’s choice (as it should be). Then there are actual tactics (strategic and tactical), and real economic strategy. The racial picks do seem to matter, too.

At this point Moo3 is in the 'like' category for me. I hope it goes to 'really like' when the patch(s) come out, and maybe something more. The jury is still out and it likely will be for the next month or so.

Kc7mxo · March 13, 2003, 15:32

I'm curious as to why QS chose the email effect for diplomacy. I much prefer the previous instant communication system.

Harry Seldon · March 13, 2003, 16:09

I like that system better, too. It also allowed multiple communications in the same turn instead of sending one per turn per empire.

The Templar · March 13, 2003, 23:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Hydro
SE4 has this nasty hard-wired ‘feature’ where if you get too powerful everyone declares war on you, regardless of past history and previous alliances.

It's the 'MegaEvilEmpire' field in a text file. Change the value from true to false and this won't happen. Can't remember the name of the file, but it's a text file.

Grumbold · March 14, 2003, 07:28

Quote:

Originally posted by darcy

Could you tell me where? I've been looking for it in vain. In one game my closest ally had a NA pact with my mortal enemy, and I was unable to make him cancel it. I tried it with "Fulfill Obligations", but that seemed to be something completely different.

In the exchange/demand items list, the stuff below the techs should include signing treaties or declaring war with third parties. I don't know the criteria for them appearing because I've ignored them so far.

Grumbold · March 14, 2003, 07:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
I'm curious as to why QS chose the email effect for diplomacy. I much prefer the previous instant communication system.

I can only assume its partly for the multiplayer game (you don't have to drop what you are doing when someone calls, you can read it if and when it suits you) and partly a nod toward the vast distances involved. That a message from further across the galaxy takes a little longer to arrive is a nice touch imo.