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Old March 15, 2003, 14:11   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
It strikes me that giving major support to Shi'ites in Iraq would be just about the best way to deal with Islamic conflict against the US. Watch the Al-Qaidr recruitments evaporate.
Al-Qaeda are enemies of the Shi'ites. They follow the Wahabbi'ist sect of Sunni Islam. Helping Shia's won't dry up the pool of recruits for al-Qaeda.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:13   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
chegitz ur so missing a matter of scale. yes the US isnt pure and innocent. but to compare the US gov't w/ saddam hussein is showing a complete and total lack of perspective and scale.
The US and its agents have murdered over 10 million people since WWII. Hussein has only managed about one million in half the time, most of those because of the war Iran forced upon him. I'm not the one without perspective and scale.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:14   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
its depressing that u expect us to do everything about everything or nothing. kinda extreme dont u think? how about when our morality and our interests coincide that u allow us to take a stand?

instead of spitting some inane hypocrisy talk at us. when in reality ALL THESE things moraly outrage u and u do absolutely nothing about any of them.
I can do nothing about them..last tim I checked, I was not in power..let me check, yup, I am not.

Daz asked why American hate Saddam..you and others state that it is cause he is a bad man. That makes a huge assumption: that Americans hate bad people, which,simply based on a simple examination of the facts, is shown to be false. For example, Laz was able to find huge quotes about the terrible actions of the Hussein regime: are long as quotes such as that available for all the victims of countless regimes, many US supported, around the world? NO. You only know what you are told..so they question is why you are told what you are told. The US government has decided, for various reasons to go to war with Iraq..that means the gound mut be laid. The US currently is allied with Usbekistan, which means you will only rarely hear about the repression there.

Now, maybe you and Laz actually care..but that is not true about Americans in general.

As for the morality..I do care, but I also know that caring is not enough, and that sadly we live in a world were morality is secondary to greed and fear. Which is why i dislike people spout about how they are doign something for morality when it fact fear and greed is what drives them. I do not ask we do nothing..I only ask we be honet with ourselves and other about why we are doing it...
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:16   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by uh Clem
Does Amnesty Internation support US military action (virtually unilateral) to remove Saddam?
Who gives a rat's ass about that bunch of left wing ideologues? That group isn't any where near neutral in their opinions and they are dominated by a group of extreme left socialists.

That doesn't mean they are terrible people but it does mean most things they say are filtered through their political bias and that we should be looking for less biased information to make our decisions upon.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:17   #95
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph
Sorry it was Iraq, Saddam even visit the Hosp. were some of our sailors were taken.
I looked it up and you're right it was Iraqi and not Iranian. I was trying to remember 16 years back and I confussed the two.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:19   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph
Sorry it was Iraq, Saddam even visit the Hosp. were some of our sailors were taken.
You're gonna need to provide a source.

EDIT: Ok, the incident was in 1987 though, not 1993. When we and Saddam were still buddies!
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:23   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
That's a great reason we should go in, and not just sit back because we think the government's motives are not as pure as the driven snow.
Any comparison of Saddam to Hitler, or the current situation to 1941 is shallow at best, wrong usually. In this instance, it was shallow, but meant to point out that "the American People" have no inborn hatred of aggressors, bullies, madmen, or butchers, a trait we share with the rest of humanity.

And if I oppose the government's actions is because I think:

a. They way they got to this point was utterly foolish and has done great harm

b. I disagree with their assesment of the likely otucomes of this action, which will affect hundreads of millions of people.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:24   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Al-Qaeda are enemies of the Shi'ites. They follow the Wahabbi'ist sect of Sunni Islam. Helping Shia's won't dry up the pool of recruits for al-Qaeda.
Both the BBC & CNN have published reports claiming several of OBL's family members have taken refuge in Iranian Buluchistan (the part of Iran which is right next to Afghanistan and Pakistan).
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:24   #99
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if ur blaming us for having allies of convenience than ur not a very practical person. the enemy of our enemy is our friend.

sure they might be bad ppl too. but we would have no military bases in the entire middle east and the whole place would become one gigantic umm bad word? just because we need allies in places doesn't mean we are endorsing what they do. it just means thats how the world works.

ur a huge cynic and there's very little one can do to convince a cynic otherwise. so I guess thats just how it is.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:30   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
if ur blaming us for having allies of convenience than ur not a very practical person. the enemy of our enemy is our friend.
You mean, like Saddam in the mid 1980's? Why not ally with Al Qaeda aaginst Saddam: we both want him gone..a marriage in the making perhaps?

Quote:
sure they might be bad ppl too. but we would have no military bases in the entire middle east and the whole place would become one gigantic umm bad word? just because we need allies in places doesn't mean we are endorsing what they do. it just means thats how the world works.
Ahh, so you accept that what people do is only slightly based on any sense of morality an instead is based on convinience? If we are such enemies of cruelty and oppresion, why aren't we enemies with these conviniently placed states who happen to be dictatorships?

Quote:
ur a huge cynic and there's very little one can do to convince a cynic otherwise. so I guess thats just how it is.
I am very cynical sometimes..but I am not a cynic. It is not wrong to state that you are doign somehting cause you think it will make things better for you, it is wrong if you disguise the real intentions of your actions with a shroud of "morality" because it is that very act that leads to more cynicism.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:33   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Who gives a rat's ass about that bunch of left wing ideologues? That group isn't any where near neutral in their opinions and they are dominated by a group of extreme left socialists.
Not really. Individual groups may be, but Amnesty International takes no position on politics except in dealing with human rights.




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Old March 15, 2003, 14:35   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Both the BBC & CNN have published reports claiming several of OBL's family members have taken refuge in Iranian Buluchistan (the part of Iran which is right next to Afghanistan and Pakistan).
Buluchis are Sunni. Iran's not as homogenius as some would have you believe.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:38   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You're gonna need to provide a source.
He's right. I would have posted something, but Joseph already took care of it. I remember having conversations about it at the place where I worked with my regular customers. They were all like, "We should go over there and kick their asses." I'm like, "I can understand that, but their fighting the Iranians, who took our people. It was obviously an accident, and they've apologized." In hindsight, it may have been payback for giving the Iranians missiles, but that's another story.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:39   #104
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why are u suggesting we ally w/ al queda? are u being "funny." or are u just being stupid. I don't think we are shrouding our efforts to neone intelligent.

this is all a backlash from sept. 11. we want to be proactive in places that coddle hatred because we have found out that that hatred is not as benign as we had hoped.

when we look at the list of possible places to attack, we find out that iraq is BY FAR the easiest. so we go there. no biggie, its not total convenience, we are driven by security issues and past mistakes(we knew afghanistan was a craphole that coddled hatred), we just thot that was benign hatred, then we learned it wasn't.

I think we only bring up saddam's horrible crimes because peopple bring up thing slike "iraq civilians will die" so its only a natural counter argument to mention the multitudes of ppl who died under saddam's reign.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:40   #105
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I have a high regard for Amnesty International, whatever their position is about this war. They are very useful and are particular about keeping on message and on method.

Che: Do you know which "movement", if any, from which AI draws its support?
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:45   #106
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I was pointing to the obvious problems with the whole: "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" notion. Like any other truisms, it is wrong many times.

As for the "suffering of Iraqis", yes, they suffer now, will suffer during the war, and wil suffer less afterwards. Since I am not an Iraqi, know any Iraqis personally, the amount of real concern and empathy I can give Iraqis is as low as that I can give any other people with whom I feel few connections beyond a shared humanity, which obviously is still a very fuzzy and non-coherent feeling for 99.999% of humanity.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:49   #107
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well the "truism" has to be used by ppl who are capable of knowing when to use it. it is obviously not random divine truth. but certainly it is a very useful tool.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:54   #108
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People do not know whent o use ot because there is no such thing as a time to use it: the reasons why states and political movements ally with each other are based on many reasons. People use the whole "enemy of enemy" crap to make a "link" between Hussein and Al Qaeda, which is a very weak case, since the aims of the two are divergent enough to make common cause difficult. Truism are intelectual lazyness trying to appear like wisdom.
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Old March 15, 2003, 14:59   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by GePap


Any comparison of Saddam to Hitler, or the current situation to 1941 is shallow at best, wrong usually. In this instance, it was shallow, but meant to point out that "the American People" have no inborn hatred of aggressors, bullies, madmen, or butchers, a trait we share with the rest of humanity.

And if I oppose the government's actions is because I think:

a. They way they got to this point was utterly foolish and has done great harm

b. I disagree with their assesment of the likely otucomes of this action, which will affect hundreads of millions of people.
I'm not comparing Saddam to Hitler, I'm comparing our tendency to say "they're far away and not bothering us, so **** 'em"
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Old March 15, 2003, 15:03   #110
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That is the common tendency of all people's, and one to be changed with great discretion and forethought, forethought not given in this isntance, I believe.
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Old March 15, 2003, 15:09   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
The American people hate him because the media and government [now] focus on his atrocities and hype a non-existent bond with al-Qaeda and potential WMD's, while ignoring more dangerous threats to the US and worse regimes as far as human rights go.

The government hates him because he was our boy and then defied us.
So it is.
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Old March 15, 2003, 15:09   #112
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its not lazyness its practicality. its the world tryin to figure out a best way. there are definitely good times to use it. and I dont even know wtf u mean by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" being used to link saddam and al queda. thats just silly and makes me think you are either randomnly spouting things out or don't know what you are talking about.
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Old March 15, 2003, 15:17   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Che: Do you know which "movement", if any, from which AI draws its support?
By and large they mostly draw their support from liberals. People in the process of radicalizing (such as myself at one time) may pass through AI, and then leave because their level of political activity and analysis only goes so far, and according to the "laws" of the organization, may never be directed at the host country. The reason for this is the protection of members of AI who may not be in free countries. Being a member of AI in some countries (say Chile under Pinochet) was enough to have the government watching you. Being critical of that same government often meant death, disappearance, or imprisonment and torture.

With the exception of the death penalty, AI does not engage in politics, per se, but merely encourages governments to live up to their existing laws and treaty obligations. When someone disappears, they begin an emergency letter writing campaign within 48 hours to get the government to investigate the disappearance and to let them know that the world is watching. Often this is enough to keep people alive. Many former prisoners have told of how their jailers would comment on the letters written on their behalf. AI also tries to gain release for "prisoners of conscience," people who opposed their own government non-violently and were jailed for it, like Ken Saro-Wiwa. Finally, they put pressue on governments not to torture their prisoners.

My break with AI came when I found that they placed both Cuba and Nicaragua in the worst catagory of human rights abusers, along side such countries as Guatemala and South Africa (this was the late 80s, mind you) and placed Israel in the highest catagory of human rights. Both should have been more towards the middle (no death squads in Cuba or Nicaragua, and the later had internationally recognized free elections, while Israel had both death squads and engaged in the torture of Palestinians). The US, which practices the Death Penalty (which AI is campaining against) was also placed in the highest catagory. It was clear to me that AI had a bias towards the West in overlooking their blemishes, while overstating the aspects of some revolutionary states. Also, the fact that they refused to consider Nelson Mandela a prisoner of conscience, because he carried out acts of sabotage in the early 1960s (against power lines) gave me problems.

In the US, many people in AI formed a new group (while still staying in AI) called VISTA (IIRC). This new group concentrated on human rights abuses within the US, such as the death penalty, torture of prisoners, political prisoners, etc. They put out a book, Can't Jail the Spirit which lists political pisoners in the US (but it's damned expensive it seems--I remember paying only about $14 for it in 1990 or so, but it's going for $41 to $65 on Amazon.com).
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Old March 15, 2003, 17:14   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by yavoon
its not lazyness its practicality. its the world tryin to figure out a best way. there are definitely good times to use it. and I dont even know wtf u mean by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" being used to link saddam and al queda. thats just silly and makes me think you are either randomnly spouting things out or don't know what you are talking about.
Are you an avid watcher of the US media? cause if you are.... you would more then know were this comment came from.
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Old March 15, 2003, 17:48   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


It strikes me that giving major support to Shi'ites in Iraq would be just about the best way to deal with Islamic conflict against the US. Watch the Al-Qaidr recruitments evaporate. Couple it with a few harshly-worded comments about Israel and I think you'd be getting somewhere.
EXACTLY.
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Old March 15, 2003, 18:28   #116
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Laz:

Is it right to kill several thousand innocents in order to protect the human rights of millions?

I know that Saddam has committed genocide, as you have defined, but so have others. Is the United States willing to act in all cases?
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Old March 15, 2003, 18:43   #117
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nice avatar che. a good symbol for the resistance.
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Old March 15, 2003, 18:55   #118
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One at a time, Obiwan, one at a time.
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Old March 15, 2003, 19:02   #119
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Quote:
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One at a time, Obiwan, one at a time.
Yeah, right. Just as long as they aren't our allies.
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Old March 15, 2003, 19:19   #120
notyoueither
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Why should the US attack regimes friendly to your administration(s)? Is being stupid required to be good?
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