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Old March 16, 2003, 13:40   #1
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Language and thought
Now, i beign with the assumption that over half of the posters here are bilingual in some regard, if not fully bilingual, then at least they know something of another language.

Now, obviously we think with words...I can't imagine any other way. This also seems ot rahter obviously imply that our thoughts are limited by the words we use. This brings about the question I have: are there thoughts you can't have in one language but yes in another? If you have ever thought in a language other than your native one, have you ever noticed a difference?

Now, on the issue of words, I would bring up Freedom and Spanish. NOw, freedom seems to be an idea that expresses negatives; it is a concept about the absence of something: limits, costs, rules, so forth. To be free is to lack something, even if what you lack you may never want. Now, in Spanish there is no word that actually means the same as freedom. To say that you are free politically is to say "soy libre", a form of Libertad, or Liberty. To say something is free of cost is to say "es gratis", which is linked ot the notion of gratitude (gratitud). Now, both Liberty and Gratitude seem to me to be positive notions; the denote the existance of something, rather than the absence of it.

Does this difference make a significant ipact in the form of ideas possible (or any you may notice with your native language and another you know), or is it just "cosmetic", like a Rose by any other name?
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Old March 16, 2003, 14:05   #2
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This is called the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis.

http://venus.va.com.au/suggestion/sapir.html
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Old March 16, 2003, 14:08   #3
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Thanks for the link.
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Old March 16, 2003, 14:21   #4
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Re: Language and thought
Quote:
Now, obviously we think with words...I can't imagine any other way.


I simply......think. I dont think in word at all.
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Old March 16, 2003, 14:37   #5
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Tassadar, you're monolingual then. I've asked this many people. People who have one native language, and didn't learn another one till they were pretty matured (14 years, at least), they all say they don't think in words.

People that are either fully bilngual with two native languages (like me) or those who learnt a second language relatively early, agree they think in words.

Well, I do think in all the three languages I use the most - Russian and Latvian (both my equally native languages), as well as English, which I use a lot, because of computers and some books. And while I'm pretty often swapping languages I think in, there are people and places of whom I only think in Latvian. When I need to make a tough decision, I think about it in Russian. When thinking of some good stuff that is going to happen soon, English it is, often .
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Old March 16, 2003, 14:51   #6
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Re: Language and thought
Quote:
Originally posted by GePap

Does this difference make a significant ipact in the form of ideas possible (or any you may notice with your native language and another you know), or is it just "cosmetic", like a Rose by any other name?
Personally, I don't think it's cosmetic at all. IMO, the words that make up our vocabulary, and more importantly the definitions that we attach to them, have a very powerful effect on how we view the world and act within it.

It's an interesting debate that's been going on in the field of linguistics and cognitive theory for the last 75 years or so. Certainly there is agreement that this effect is occuring, but it's importance in thought processes is widely disputed, ranging from very weak to very strong.

Then there's the question of which languages it may be strong in versus which it may be weak in. The difficulty is in studying language using language, or worse, other languages.

George Orwell makes the important point in 1984 that the power to define words is the power to control society. One has to wonder how this relates to the "political correctness" movement, no matter how you define the phrase or which side you think you're on.

A few more links:

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/wor...apirwhorf.html
http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MU...ry/sapirw.html
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapir-Whorf_hypothesis
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:02   #7
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It depends on what you think.

There are things I always think about. Small real-life stuff like when and what to eat, and other things like school, apolyton, Utopia, Civ3 PBEM games(yeah, I dont have a life ) etc. In these cases, I dont think in words. Only general ideas, desires...

When it comes to new issues, or complicated ones, then I cant avoid the need to formulate my thougths into some sort of logical stream, so words have to be used.

The interesting thing is that when, in the latter case, I think of really complicated things, I do it in English. Because the only place I use to express complicated opinions is various English message boards.

It's really odd. For example, when thinking about whether to go somewhere now or wait couple hours the "logical stream" is in Hebrew. When trying to decide my future, or when thinking about some important world issue, it's English.
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:07   #8
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While I've spent some time thinking about the Orwellian point of view and agree with it in theory I haven't been in a situation to test it on myself. I know this though, It is at times hard to articulate some things when there's not words for it in the other language.
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:41   #9
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GePap: one should note that this hypothesis, is not the only one made in the last couple of years, in that direction, and they come as a complete opposite to the ideas of the "cognitive revolution".

But I do agree with them.
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:49   #10
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Wow - after all the noise on the forum about philosophy being useless, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis rears it's ugly head.

Even if you don't believe in the cognitive revolution you can still dismiss the hypothesis as Donald Davidson did in "On the Very Idea of a Conceptual Scheme". I tend to agree with him.
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:53   #11
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Old March 16, 2003, 15:54   #12
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I think mostly in English. But sometimes it switches to Chinese. It's kinda random, actually.

There're also times when I think of something that I can only describe in one language. That's when I pause halfway in speech and gropes around for a word (even though I know it in the other language). Sometimes there're even concepts that I feel can't be described in either one.

In general I think that language influences thought, but language doesn't make thought. Our thoughts are carried by the medium called language, but without this medium they still exist - they just can't be expressed.
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Old March 16, 2003, 16:02   #13
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Quote:
In general I think that language influences thought, but language doesn't make thought. Our thoughts are carried by the medium called language, but without this medium they still exist - they just can't be expressed.
I don't agree. most of our highest functions, abstract concepts cannot exist without language.

Besides, You sort of contradict yourself. either thoughts and language exist independently and the language is just medium of passing them through, or language influences thought. noone claims that language is the thing that createst thoughts, but I don't think we could grasp concepts without words. And words are part of a lanugage. if language influences thought, that means that language and thought are interconnected.
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Old March 16, 2003, 17:02   #14
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Of course thought influences language; this is because, in the process of expressing thoughts (in language), the thought goes through filters that bends it.

E.g., If A is talking to B, and A wishes to express the thought to B, A must then bend the thought to fit the language, changing it into a stream of code. B takes the code and interprets it, trying to reconstruct the thought. BUT B can never get the thought exactly right; language can never express all the nuances of thought.

Similarly, A hears him/herself talking, and the "code of language" is also reinterpreted by A into variants of the original thought. That's why language can sometimes influence and/or reinforce thought.

But language doesn't provide the basis for thought. E.g., if you're reading a textbook and you don't get something, you tend to read it over and over until it is internalized. But if language were the sole medium of thought in your brain, then that wouldn't make sense, because then the first time through WOULD have allowed you to understand the concept. Instead, the need to "repeat" and "internalize" so that you understand something means that your brain is trying to convert the language to something else - something more innate.

Another example: I spent a couple of minutes trying to phrase the above paragraph, even though I knew right at the beginning exactly what my point was. If thought really were linear streams of words, then wouldn't I simply have typed the paragraph once through, from beginning to end?
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Old March 16, 2003, 17:12   #15
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Wording of entire paragraphs doesn't count, as it doesn't convey a single message, but an entire relationship of messages and information. Obviously, you either didn't know exactly what was your point or wrote a lot of it around, to phrase it more nicely, because a point can be passed through a single sentence, phrase.

Generally, you seem to equate entire passages with single thoughts. I don't think this is correct.
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Old March 16, 2003, 17:46   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan

E.g., If A is talking to B, and A wishes to express the thought to B, A must then bend the thought to fit the language, changing it into a stream of code. B takes the code and interprets it, trying to reconstruct the thought. BUT B can never get the thought exactly right; language can never express all the nuances of thought.
As I see it...

This assumes that thought exists prior to and thus independent of language. It isn't clear that it does or that there is a separate "language of thought". There isn't immediate evidence for either claim, so they must be argued for.

And it also isn't clear that the process that produces linguistic utterances is necessary a process that involves the manipulation of information, rather than a mere physical process (although it could of course be both).

Language is a public phenomenon, with public checks and balances. A "private" language is not possible because other people could not understand it and because it could provide no criteria of correct use of expression. Since language is essentially normative (i.e. rule governed) it follows that it can't be private.

Moreover, the meaning of every single utterance we make is based on our acceptance of countless beliefs - in other words meaning is holistically distributed throughout our belief structure rather than parcelled out sentence by sentence. So the notion that there are discrete and independent thought contents to which we assign linguistic expressions, seems to me hard to justify.
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Old March 16, 2003, 18:06   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
I don't agree. most of our highest functions, abstract concepts cannot exist without language.
Describe to me a hyper-cube...?

Many many many (of my) abstract thought can only be visualised, described, perceived as images, or feelings, and I only really use words when I'm talking to myself, or formulating speech (or writing or whatever)
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Old March 16, 2003, 18:44   #18
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Concepts can be thought about without words. I have found that hearing something in foreign languages that I understand, I translate words, BUT numbers bypass this and I understand immediately.

However I am not sure whether this is general, or just because I am good with numbers.
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Old March 16, 2003, 18:48   #19
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Here's a question. Why do we customarily use base 10? Is it because we have ten fingers?
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Old March 16, 2003, 18:51   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Wording of entire paragraphs doesn't count, as it doesn't convey a single message, but an entire relationship of messages and information. Obviously, you either didn't know exactly what was your point or wrote a lot of it around, to phrase it more nicely, because a point can be passed through a single sentence, phrase.

Generally, you seem to equate entire passages with single thoughts. I don't think this is correct.
That's the thing. The entire passage is, in essence, one idea. This idea is self-embodied, and contains, within its own entity, all the evidence, supports, propositions, assertions, as well as my personal knowledge, beliefs, sensations, and prejudice. It is language that tears this structure apart, and renders it into a form that can be transmitted and analyzed by other people.
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Old March 16, 2003, 18:52   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Here's a question. Why do we customarily use base 10? Is it because we have ten fingers?
Yes.

The Mayans used base twenty. That's because they counted toes too.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Here's a question. Why do we customarily use base 10? Is it because we have ten fingers?
Base 10 is sooooo last century...
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:13   #23
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I always had the impression that we used to use Base 12 at some point in the past. The fact that a clock has 12 hours rather than 10, and that we say "eleven" and "twelve" rather than "oneteen" and "twoteen", for example.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:15   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Base 10 is sooooo last century...
The logic underlying my point is that mathematics may well be conventional rather than reflecting some logical law of the universe (whatever that might be).

Anyway Asher, what are you doing here? You hate philosophy and think it is worthless.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:18   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
The logic underlying my point is that mathematics may well be conventional rather than reflecting some logical law of the universe (whatever that might be).

Anyway Asher, what are you doing here? You hate philosophy and think it is worthless.
It's amazing you still don't understand the argument after so many posts.

Philosophy is useless at the university level, philosophy is used in every day life.

Courses on breathing are useless at the university level, but it's still used in every day life as well.

And OF COURSE the use of base-10 is conventional rather than reflecting some logical flaw of the universe. Mathematics is a man-made construct, it was made to made by man and as such is convenient for man to use...
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:22   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher

It's amazing you still don't understand the argument after so many posts.

Philosophy is useless at the university level, philosophy is used in every day life.

Courses on breathing are useless at the university level, but it's still used in every day life as well.

And OF COURSE the use of base-10 is conventional rather than reflecting some logical flaw of the universe. Mathematics is a man-made construct, it was made to made by man and as such is convenient for man to use...
Oh god....

You know - there are good reasons for believing that it is a man made construct and equally good reasons for thinking that it isn't. Those of the cognitivist persuasion think that logic and mathematics reflect innate mental structures. The Davidsons and Agathons of this world say otherwise.

But I can't see any practical everyday applications of the Sapir-Whorf thesis. In fact it is used in anthropology, but the intelligibility of such a view (which is prior to its use) is debated by philosophers. Philosophical questions extend through all the social sciences and to a lesser extent into the hard sciences.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:23   #27
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Finns say oneteen and twoteen. In finnish of course.


Hmmm. How about people who grow up with animals or something similar. Totally isolated people can think too, because they can reason and interract with environment. What else is language than public reasoning? Such persons have been of limited intelligence however.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:24   #28
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If we're going to discuss how mathematics isn't a man-made construct I may as well discuss why I think my socks were crafted meticulously by aliens.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:28   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

Describe to me a hyper-cube...?
You use mathematics, which is a specific and narrow language, to describe a hyper-cube. I think. I'm a history major so I might be getting it all wrong. A hyper-cube is a four-dimensional cube. In other words, a hyper-cube is to a cube as a cube is to a square and as a square is to a line segment. But beyond that, I really don't know what it is, because I don't know advanced math, and therefore don't have the linguistic background to describe a hyper-cube.
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Old March 16, 2003, 19:30   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
If we're going to discuss how mathematics isn't a man-made construct I may as well discuss why I think my socks were crafted meticulously by aliens.
I don't think the questions are equivalent. Anyway the fact that you believe dogmatically that mathematics is a human construcy doesn't prove that it is and isn't even a compelling reason to believe so.

But first answer me this, is the law of non-contradiction something made up by us or some real law of the universe? And surely if no human beings existed two apples plus two apples would still be four apples and not five - even though there was nobody around to observe this stupendous fact.
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