Thread Tools
Old March 17, 2003, 11:29   #31
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
you guys seem to forget. Iraq is a very wealthy country, once sanctions are lifted.It wont take long for Iraq to return to a good economy like the early 80's...very little international aid will be needed (Mostly humanitarian). Bush has said, any rebuilding of the infrastucture would be paid for by Iraqi Oil. So this is really a non-issue.


I imagine tho that the Iraqi National Congress will not look kindly on France and Germany.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 11:34   #32
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Don't call us, we'll call you.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 11:36   #33
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
From earlier news, the Kurds have already stated that France should not expect any contracts with them.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...4-095811-8865r
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 11:38   #34
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Actually the rebuilding of Iraq (after it has been demolished - what a joke) will cost huge. (some place it even in the 100 bil. dollars)
Bush simply ignores it and his past record in Afganistan is deardful.


No Iraqi wants to see its countrmen slaughtered so I doubt they'll have any feelings for France and Germany different from what they'd save for the US.

And it is clear that the Kurds are endangered by the American invasion.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 11:41   #35
Kropotkin
Emperor
 
Kropotkin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Ivory tower
Posts: 3,511
If the US attacks without backing from the UN it wouldn't be more than fair that the US will have to pick up the tab for all. However, this is not just about diplomacy. Considering that the US doesn't seem to be any good at peace keeping we have to take the populations fates into consideration. It wouldn't be good if they turn the country into another West Bank and leaves as soon as it gets tough due to popular demand from home. If the global community can take resources to pick up the peaces in countries as Cambodia it could do the same in Iraq even if it's the worlds superpower that's partly responsible to the situation. (yes obviously Saddam Hussein is the one to blame but there's no chance he'll do anything about the situation).
__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
Kropotkin is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 11:51   #36
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:56
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
I don't think there will be any rebuilding. Once Hussein is removed, all hell will break loose in Iraq. Some possible scenarioes include:

- warlords, former Iraqi generals, grab land
- massive civil wars between various religious factions
- Kurds rebel, Turkish military comes in to crush the attempt
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 12:05   #37
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
"all hell will break loose in Iraq"

I think those struggles won't be carried out openly as long as the US occupies Iraq.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 12:07   #38
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:56
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
It depends. Take Afghanistan for example.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 12:11   #39
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Well the US has not actually occupied Afghanistan.

In Iraq that's a dilemma:

- take full control and have your soldiers on a silver plate for regional fundy terrorists

- just take strategic control and witness regular fightings
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 12:47   #40
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
"It depends. Take Afghanistan for example."

Watched geraldo from Kabul the other day. Actually the people are very happy and alot of people are rebuilding. Warlords there are disarming. Afghanistan was a really good example of what needs to be done in Iraq to an extent. Despite what everybody at the time saying we could never do it.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:05   #41
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Hardly. The situation in Afganistan is pretty much shitty.

Also the Europeans are quite dismayed at Bush's lack of commitment there.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:10   #42
GePap
Emperor
 
GePap's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of the Big Apple
Posts: 4,109
Yeah, faded glory, geraldo from Kabul..I wonder why Kabul, and lets say, not Herat? Afghanistan is not the example to push for Iraq.

As for the rebuilding: I am sure the US will try to maintain a monopoly (as the list of companies shows). I doubt there is much money to be made from Iraq besides the oil, but it will take years and billions of dollars of investements to get Iraq's oil production not only back to were it once was, but were it can get to. I think Cerberus is correct..if the Us keeps other states out, then the impression of imperialism and creating some sort of mercantalist colony will only grow. Also, so many corporations are so huge and internartional, it is impossible to keep the French out, if you let any really big corporations in.
__________________
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
GePap is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:24   #43
axi
Prince
 
axi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:56
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 856
It is certain that all reconstruction will be contracted to US and UK firms. It is also certain that all reconstruction will be paid with Iraqi oil. Oil which will be sold dirt cheap to US oil companies. Also the bombs that will destroy the infrastructure will be replaced by new shipments, also made by US firms. Hence, the more they bomb, the more $$$ they get.

Isn't that good business, or what?

Expect to see Iraq devastated and targets struck for no reason whatsoever. Let's hope that no medical companies want to open business in the ME, cause we might see hospitals being bombed as well.
__________________
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
axi is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:30   #44
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
"It is certain that all reconstruction will be contracted to US and UK firms."

UK? Bush & co will screw UK companies whereever they can.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:33   #45
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Yes.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 13:56   #46
Ned
King
 
Ned's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Aptos, CA
Posts: 2,596
Quote:
Originally posted by Osweld


I thought we where talking about Iraq here... one of the most modern and progressive nations in the region (not that that's saying much), and a place that will soon be ruled by the US military, or whichever enterprising dictator they think they can trust.

Just look at Saudi Arabia or Israel to see how much peace and freedom USA support brings.


Iraqis have lived under repression and will continue to live under repression, a few interludes of bombing and war isn't going to help their situation any.


EDIT: To emphasize my point, and to keep on topic : I don't think Iraqis will be grateful towards anyone in this war, and they are going to be pretty pissed off with the west in general (I do not think they will differentiate between france and the USA, they are all playing games with them and deciding their fate). Rebuilding their homes after you blow them up isn't going to make them feel any better.
Actually, you don't seem to get or watch American news channels. The Iraqi opposition has made many appearances on TV. They all say they they will remember the people who helped them liberate their country.

I would sincerely doubt whether the Iraqi's will even entertain bids from French and German companies.

Aside from this, I understand the US is willing to commit billions to help rebuild Iraq from 20+ years of Saddam. Those contract should largely go to US companies, IMO.

I only hope that Bush keeps the UN out of Iraq. Otherwise, we will see the usual hash of things. Money will line the pockets of UN bureaucrats as they "decide" who gets the contracts.

Actually, come to think of it, I'd like to see just how much Blix has made off of being kind to Saddam.
Ned is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:04   #47
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
"Hardly. The situation in Afganistan is pretty much shitty. "


Where have you been? What have you been watching? Where do you get your news? Wage-Slave? Judiast priest, you and your kind are so brainwashed on these issue's by Leftist Propaganda. Provide some proof things are 'Shitty'. I dont see any, I see afghan's rebuilding, I see on AP reports of thousands of militia coming out of the mountains and disarming and warlords meeting at the Loya Jirga next year. I see the king Zahir Shah and Karzai saying reconstruction is going at a good pace and that there is relative peace at the moment. I dont see afghanistan as a Terrorist Base anymore...Do you? I dont see mass-executions the Taliban used to keep people in-line. I dont see women slaves anymore....

So stfu. Either you guys are just trolling or you truly believe this stuff. In case of the latter, I feel really bad for your ignorance on the subject. And Im more than happy Bush isnt listening to you on the Iraqi issue. You have shown your true colors, the colors of anti-american/ anti-freedom
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:08   #48
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
You forgot ia Hekmatyar and co in that rosy picture.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:09   #49
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Actually the one who lives in a media censorship is you.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:14   #50
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
"You forgot a Hekmatyar and co in that rosy picture."

Oh yes, the mouse that roared..but is afraid to bite.


"Actually the one who lives in a media censorship is you."

Ya right...CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, AP, Rueters.... real news! Real Censorship!

What do you watch on one of your 3 channels? Greek Public radio live on TV?
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:16   #51
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
Pretty much all of the american media have fallen pretty much in line. Thus the censorship you're under.

I get both american and european chanels.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:17   #52
Drake Tungsten
Deity
 
Drake Tungsten's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the closet...
Posts: 10,604
The question isn't whether France or Germany will help rebuild Iraq, but whether or not the US will allow them to. I for one hope that we don't allow our enemies anywhere near Iraq...
__________________
KH FOR OWNER!
ASHER FOR CEO!!
GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!
Drake Tungsten is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:18   #53
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
Oh and another thing for the spineless cowards in Europe who think Saddam can be contained... You dont contain him, WE (US & UK), DO. We Pay upfront, we keep thousands of troops in the region, We patrol the No-Fly Zones, We enforce sanctions. Not You! France left the table long ago...YOU dont have any say in it. They arent your troops, it isnt your billions of dollars.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:18   #54
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
"CNN, FOX, MSNBC, ABC, AP, Rueters"

So you get all your news from "Fantasyworlds r us".
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:19   #55
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
But it IS our planet.

And we don't want your dollars or planes.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:19   #56
Bereta_Eder
Settler
 
Bereta_Eder's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 65,535
FOX in particular is very underestimated as a major entertainment source.
Bereta_Eder is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:20   #57
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
I was addicted to FOX when I could recieve it. Needed my 10 minutes fix daily.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:21   #58
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
"But it IS our planet. "

That is an ignorant way of looking at the world...


"And we don't want your dollars or planes."

You wont get them, and we dont need you. So get out of the way.
faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:23   #59
faded glory
Civilization II Multiplayer
King
 
faded glory's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fascist party of apolyton.
Posts: 1,405
puhllleasse.


"Fantasyworlds r us".


Oh speaking of fantasyworld r us. How about germany "If there is a 1% chance of peace, we must have 100% effort"

All of a sudden Shroeder is a true Ghandi!

What a joke! ...."Inspections not war"!

faded glory is offline  
Old March 17, 2003, 14:24   #60
HershOstropoler
Settler
 
Local Time: 22:56
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
Better than the Bush admin's ""If there is a 1% chance of peace, we must make a 100% effort to destroy that chance".
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
HershOstropoler is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:56.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team