Thread Tools
Old March 21, 2003, 15:55   #1
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
Spies: Useless or Indispensible?
Does anyone have any ideas as to how spies can serve any strategic purpose whatsoever? I can't find any uses. To get maps, just trade with 'em. Propaganda missions are too risky. Military positions often don't help too much for a peaceful leader like myself. Investigating cities and stealing technology I can do through an embassy. Is there anything they can do?
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 16:04   #2
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Anything I want, I ask for.

If that doesn't work, I take it by force.
Verto is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 16:11   #3
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
Yes, a valid strategy. But have you ever used spies in a game?

And by the way, is there a way to take tech through conquest (besides extorting it from your enemies during peace negotiations)? All I ever take is gold and workers.
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 16:16   #4
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
There is no way to take tech by conquering a city, as you could in Civ2.

I've used espionage, but find that, for the most part, it is too cost prohibitive.
Verto is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 17:01   #5
Mazarin
Civilization III PBEMCivilization III Democracy GameACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Prince
 
Mazarin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: of Old Europe
Posts: 341
I often use that for stealing techs in late industrial/modern era: these techs usually cost more that 10k if I wanted to buy them -and only about 3k for a "safe" steal attempt...and this money does not go to my enemy and speed up his research.
__________________
www.civforum.de
Mazarin is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 17:47   #6
Arrian
PtWDG Gathering StormInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamApolyton UniversityC4DG Gathering StormPtWDG2 Cake or Death?
Deity
 
Arrian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
I almost never use spies.

I occasionally actually research espionage & build the agency just so I can plant spies and see the enemy's order of battle on the F3 screen, but that's about it.

People have posted examples of using spies to sabotage SS production in a close space race or stealing a key tech for the same purpose, though. There have been several threads about espionage... you may want to run a search and have a look at some of the older threads.

Most of us don't use spies much. I think that's an accurate statement.

-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
Arrian is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 18:34   #7
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
I do use spies but only for the F3 screen and to occasionally investigate a city in wartime.

I will only bother to investigate a city if I suspect a particularly strong defence but it is not something I do often.

For a peaceful player being able to see the F3 screen can be useful. If the Zulus on another continent threaten you or declare war but don't have any transports or warships then you know they aren't a threat. Apart from that sort of use I never bother with any of the espionage missions.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 22:04   #8
BigDork
Prince
 
BigDork's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The biggest dork around.
Posts: 375
Ephesos...

Check out this thread I started, it might give you some answers.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=80040

I too found that I really didn't know if the spies were worth the cost in the end. If you have any other questions just ask, the guys on this site know a lot and kick butt.

BigD
__________________
Holy Cow!!! BigDork's Back!

BigDork's Poll of the Day over at MZO. What Spam Will It Be Today?
BigDork is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 23:28   #9
Verto
Apolyton Storywriters' GuildNationStatesMac
King
 
Verto's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,824
Thanks for the thread link.
Verto is offline  
Old March 21, 2003, 23:34   #10
2manyusernames
Chieftain
 
2manyusernames's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Posts: 31
Also you might want to consider implementing Player1's change;
making spies of all non-communist governments veterans and selecting elite for communist governments. Makes the chance of a succesful spy attempt much higher.
2manyusernames is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 00:12   #11
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
Quote:
making spies of all non-communist governments veterans and selecting elite for communist governments. Makes the chance of a succesful spy attempt much higher.
What do you mean by making spies elite and veteran? I thought spies weren't units in Civ III, like caravans. If this is something in the manual, I didn't find it.

Anyway, I always run short on cash after just one or two missions, and when I fail (quite often), it's always war or possibly worse (______ is displeased). Is there a way to cut costs and risks besides communism?
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 00:17   #12
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
Oh yeah, thanks for the link. It really helps.
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 00:48   #13
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:16
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
How do you effectively plant the damn things? Almost every time I try I get caught and then have to fight a war I don't want with some demented maniac who goes all out to kill me.
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 06:30   #14
VJ
King
 
VJ's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 2,247
Pretty useless, with my playing style.
VJ is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 13:13   #15
Catt
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton University
King
 
Catt's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
I generally only "use" them for the order of battle info on F3. Sometimes, during wartime, I might use them to investigate a few cities as potential targets. They are useful in those games (perhaps rare) when a reasonably close spacerace is underway.

I will almost never research Espionage but will trade for it (when the AI in quesiton doesn't have adequate more desireable assets), so my ability to plant spies from game to game varies considerably. And if I've played a largely peaceful game, I tend to only attempt spy planting during times of war. In not at war, I will only attemt to plant spies with the forewarning that I might start a war through the attempt.

Catt
Catt is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 14:00   #16
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Investigating a city you are about to assault can tell you what the defenses are and whether it has Civil Defense. The trick is to do it at the right time, not just BEFORE he adds/conscripts reinforcements. Or do it multiple times.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 15:00   #17
Theseus
PtWDG Gathering StormApolyton UniversityApolytoners Hall of FameBtS Tri-LeagueC4DG Gathering StormApolyCon 06 Participants
Emperor
 
Theseus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm!
Posts: 8,907
F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.
__________________
The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.
Theseus is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 17:13   #18
CerberusIV
lifer
C4WDG United Dungeon DwellersC4BtSDG Templars
Emperor
 
CerberusIV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: on the Emerald Isle
Posts: 5,316
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.
I don't. Imagine if it did and took as long to scroll down as the F3 screen does.
__________________
Never give an AI an even break.
CerberusIV is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 18:44   #19
VJ
King
 
VJ's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 2,247
Quote:
The trick is to do it at the right time, not just BEFORE he adds/conscripts reinforcements.

Your voice comes from experience?
VJ is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 19:51   #20
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuomerehu

Your voice comes from experience?
Absolutely!
I learned from that, though there are still times (too many, in fact) that I do not bother to Investigate City until AFTER my assault has failed.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 19:58   #21
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.
I quite agree. If not overall losses, at least a tally of those lost in the last (x) turns!
If I have a spy, I would much rather not have to (1) check F3 and take count of each significant # of troops, (2) sink the transport, (3) check F3 again and compare.

BTW Theseus, I recently did this and the single transport was fully loaded (guerillas, cavalry & infantry)!
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 20:29   #22
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:16
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
Does anyone know if there is a way to make placing spies more likely to succeed?
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 20:40   #23
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Agathon, I am convinced that having higher culture helps. Whether relative spy 'experience' is a factor I'm not sure. If at first you don't succeed, just try again 4-5 turns later; I just had a game where it worked on my 3rd attempt. If you already have an embassy, you can still plant a spy after war is declared.

If you were asking about using the editor to make it more likely to succeed: No, only the 'Base Cost' can be adjusted.
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 21:58   #24
2manyusernames
Chieftain
 
2manyusernames's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally posted by Ephesos


What do you mean by making spies elite and veteran? I thought spies weren't units in Civ III, like caravans. If this is something in the manual, I didn't find it.

Anyway, I always run short on cash after just one or two missions, and when I fail (quite often), it's always war or possibly worse (______ is displeased). Is there a way to cut costs and risks besides communism?
Go to the "Governments" tab in the editor and change the "Spies Are" settings for each of the governments. (Player1's mod leaves the diplomats as they are standard)

This will change the difficulty of a succesful spy. Then to cut costs, change the base cost in the editor
2manyusernames is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 22:22   #25
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:16
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
Quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
Agathon, I am convinced that having higher culture helps. Whether relative spy 'experience' is a factor I'm not sure. If at first you don't succeed, just try again 4-5 turns later; I just had a game where it worked on my 3rd attempt. If you already have an embassy, you can still plant a spy after war is declared.

If you were asking about using the editor to make it more likely to succeed: No, only the 'Base Cost' can be adjusted.
Not about the editor. I usually play for culture but it doesn't seem to help me. I was only about 10 turns away from a cultural win and I still kept getting snapped. Mind you the fact that I ruled about 3/4 of the earths surface and owned two dozen nuclear weapons meant that this wasn't a big deal.

I uncheck the space race option so I never have to use them for that. All I use them for is to give me an idea of how many units the enemy has.
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 22, 2003, 23:18   #26
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
One question for 2manyusernames: I have the Mac version, version 1.16, and I don't have the editor. Is there another way to make spies "veteran"?
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 23, 2003, 00:22   #27
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:16
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
Ephesos, have you updated to 1.21g? Or are you using OS 9?
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 23, 2003, 03:41   #28
Jaybe
Mac
Emperor
 
Jaybe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Henderson, NV USA
Posts: 4,168
Ephesos, you can:
Go communist, not that it will ensure you success, but if you are a religious civ at least the cost isn't prohibitive since you can switch right back; or

With Mac OS X and version 1.21g you can download the Editor. See the Apolyton/Civ3/News, or the Civ3 Macintosh forum here or on CivFanatics.

You could also just keep on trying. Back in 1.16 I am pretty sure you could try every turn. On the current Windoze version (PTW??) if you fail then it won't do any good to try again for 3-4 turns. And YOU have to keep track, the game doesn't do it for you!
__________________
JB
I play BtS (3.19) -- Noble or Prince, Rome, marathon speed, huge hemispheres (2 of them), aggressive AI, no tech brokering. I enjoy the Hephmod Beyond mod. For all non-civ computer uses, including internet, I use a Mac.
Jaybe is offline  
Old March 23, 2003, 10:20   #29
Ephesos
MacNever Ending Stories
Chieftain
 
Ephesos's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 44
I do have OS X, so I'm not prohibitively behind you Windows people. I will make a note to get v. 1.21 and the editor. Thanks for the tip.
__________________
People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them that I have the heart of a small boy... and I keep it in a jar on my desk. - Stephen King
Ephesos is offline  
Old March 23, 2003, 13:08   #30
VJ
King
 
VJ's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:16
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 2,247

Two threads about exactly the same subject in the front page.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=80040
VJ is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 18:16.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team