How crap are helicopter gun ships? - Page 2

alva · March 23, 2003, 00:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozz
Nothing unusual here, accidents kill and destroy more
aircraft and crew than the enemy in most conflicts.
(WW1, WW2 fer sure)

So all Saddam has to do, is give the allies some more choppers to win this thing ?

Asher · March 23, 2003, 00:53

"Gun ships"? WTF?

In what perverse world are Sea Kings and Sea Knights "gun ships"

notyoueither · March 23, 2003, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozz
Nothing unusual here, accidents kill and destroy more
aircraft and crew than the enemy in most conflicts.
(WW1, WW2 fer sure)

Source?

Drake Tungsten · March 23, 2003, 01:54

As Joseph said, the crashes are probably a result of the age of the helicopters in question, not a problem with helicopters in general.

Static Universe · March 23, 2003, 02:04

These copters are mostly crashing due to problems with airborne sand getting into the engines and other moving parts, or eroding the rotor blades.

Asher · March 23, 2003, 02:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Static23
These copters are mostly crashing due to problems with airborne sand getting into the engines and other moving parts, or eroding the rotor blades.

That's a bit of a stretch. 2/3 of the copter crashes occured right after takeoff, from a ship, over water...

notyoueither · March 23, 2003, 02:15

Crash? It was a collision. Human error.

Static Universe · March 23, 2003, 02:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher

That's a bit of a stretch. 2/3 of the copter crashes occured right after takeoff, from a ship, over water...

Airborne water particles then?

Seeker · March 23, 2003, 02:18

Sea Kings...

It won't surprise me if these things cause more non-urban casualties than the actual war.

The Sea King is a large, difficult aircraft prone to sudden, unexplained mechancial failures.

Also, flying any bulky transport helicopter in war conditions (or any conditions for Sea Kings) is probably the most difficult thing a human pilot has to do in this modern age. They wobble, they shift weight....it's damn hard.

I would feel more safe in a Chobham armoured M1A2 firing at a T-72, or at 20 000 in an F-15C blowing up AAA, then I would in a 30 year old Sea King on a routine supply mission.

The stats show which activity is more dangerous.

Carver · March 23, 2003, 02:44

As Asher said, the Sea Kings aren't "gunships." The AH-64D Apache that made a "hard landing" is. A genuine helo gunship is one of the most pwerful conventional weapons around. In many Third World countries they make all the difference in jungle combat. IIRC, it was an Apache that fired the first shot of Gulf I.

Carver · March 23, 2003, 03:07

Russia's number one gunship at the moment: the Mil Mi-28

Drake Tungsten · March 23, 2003, 03:11

Looks like an Apache rip-off...

MichaeltheGreat · March 23, 2003, 03:21

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
LOL

LOL at this - see you at the end of the war. You just earned a little time off - for the duration.

MichaeltheGreat · March 23, 2003, 03:24

Quote:

Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Quick search on Google says that 17 helicopters were lost in Gulf War I but whether any of them were accidents I don't know...

Only one was shot down, an unarmed medevac bird from the 101 ABD. The others were lost to accidents of one kind or another.

Bugs ****ing Bunny · March 23, 2003, 05:16

Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability.

As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

Dis · March 23, 2003, 05:22

what did paiktis22 say? I missed it.

The problem is all those ships in the gulf I'm sure.

Each navy ship (with aircraft) has its own aircraft controllers. AC rating I believe. I'm not exactly sure how they coordinate it with so many ships. I'm guessing one ship takes on all aircraft coordination between ships. But that isn't going to include the British as they are another nation's military. You can see how mistakes are made because of it.

notyoueither · March 23, 2003, 05:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability.

As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

One just crashed on take off into our Destroyer.

We want a refund!

CerberusIV · March 23, 2003, 07:56

The UK Sea Kings have been upgraded and refitted several times but have basically reached the end of their lives. They are being replaced by EH101's.

With the best will in the world helicopters just fall out of the sky sometimes. Various types are used for supply and crew runs from the UK to the oil rigs in the N Sea and every now and then one goes splash. Under combat conditions with pressure to keep them flying rather than in the hangar undergoing maintenance and with crews flying repeated missions mistakes and accidents will happen.

Dauphin · March 23, 2003, 09:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
"Gun ships"? WTF?

In what perverse world are Sea Kings and Sea Knights "gun ships"

Artistic licence. It sounded better in the title of the thread than "How crap are helicopters?".

Az · March 23, 2003, 09:23

Carver: I thought that the Ka-52(?) is better.

*End Is Forever* · March 23, 2003, 11:19

"The Dangers Of Wartime Flying" (BBC News Online Article)

Ozz · March 23, 2003, 11:45

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither Source?

The library,

Read any airforce history they lose more men and planes
to weather, mechanical failure and training accidents than enemy action.

The last book i read which spelled this out clearly was
"Mohawks over Burma"

Alinestra Covelia · March 23, 2003, 13:26

But... that's... just not right!!!

I mean whenever I boot up Alpha Centauri and load up on Chaos Nerve Gas Choppers, they always go right through the enemy like cabbage soup through a grandmother.

Maybe Saddam sent Probe Teams into London to alter the UK's version of the alphax.txt file to make their helicopters crap.

Gibsie · March 23, 2003, 13:31

It's pretty obvious, they just failed to get back to base by the end of the turn which dealt the squadron 30% damage.

Joseph · March 23, 2003, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
what did paiktis22 say? I missed it.

The problem is all those ships in the gulf I'm sure.

If you read it, it sound like he was happy that the two British Chopper when down with lost of life.

Joseph · March 23, 2003, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability.

As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

The Chinooks have had their problems for sure, but the Sea King has been around since 1959. Even if you build one today, you are using 1950s technology. Yes they need to be replace with newer designs.

Carver · March 23, 2003, 17:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
Carver: I thought that the Ka-52(?) is better.

Technologically, I think it is, but no one has ordered the Ka-50/52 yet. The Mi-28 has at least been purchased in small numbers by the Russian AF; I think they were using two of them in Chechnya.

Midshipman · March 24, 2003, 10:54

Well, if you want to know about helos, I am probably the guy to ask. Seeing as I work on them. So, here is a quick breakdown on all the helos in action:

46/47: The Chinooks and Sea Knights. Also known as flying bannanna and flying coffin. Old helos with dual main rotors, used for cargo, VOD and troop insertion

3 Sea King- Older helo, single rotor. Primary uses are cargo, VOD and SAR.

60 - Main helo, used for troop insertions, transport, VOD

53 - Heavy lift helo, most powerful in the world. Can carry up to 55 troops with machine guns on ramp and doors. Also used for VOD and cargo.

64 - Apache attack helicopter

58 - Kiowa scout helicopter.

Any questions?

BeBro · March 24, 2003, 11:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Midshipman
46/47: The Chinooks (...). Also known as flying bannanna (...)

Btw, the Brits will also use Lynx and Puma helis.

CerberusIV · March 24, 2003, 11:21

Don't the US marines still use Cobras?