The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


What about Dune?

Dune is nothing.

[Drake Tungsten]

Dune is nothing.

The mere presence of the Kwisatz Haderach is enough to guarantee victory for the Dune forces. If there is a way to beat the enemy, he already knows it...

[Boris Godunov]

So how would one take out an Imperial Star Destroyer whilst riding a sand worm?

[Drake Tungsten]

So how would one take out an Imperial Star Destroyer whilst riding a sand worm?

There are spaceships in Dune, you know.

[Dr Strangelove]

What about a Tarkelean Battle Cruiser? Even one has the capacity to destroy earth, and they've got thousands of them. For that matter even the tiny "noisy cricket" has the capability of blowing a hole the size of a truck in the hull of your Imperial Stardestroyer!

[Kramerman]

But I can say that Erthfrce Marines would wipe the floor wih those storm troopers.

I couldnt disagree more. Again, I must explain that Storm Troopers are hard corps elite shock troops, who are 100% loyal soldiers to the New Order (ie Empire). They would be the equivalent of US Airborne Rangers today, as far as their elitism. I dont recall the details of their training, but it is deadly, many die routinely as the weak are weeded out through strenuous drills and live fire excersises. They are also somewhat brainwashed to be completely and absolutely loyal to the Emperor (his Force skills are partially behind this, using the dark side to influence their minds).

Their light-weight futuristic composite polymer body Armor is invulnerable to most any ballistic small arms fire (modern hand guns and rifles) and resistant to blaster fire. It is temperature controled, vacuum proof, and self powered and self-sustaining (with internal food and H2O supplies) for something like a week, IIRC.
Inside the helmet is various sensory inhancement devices (infrared vision, NOD, autofocus zoom, radar, GPS tracker, etc) squad linked comlinks for tactical maneuvers by the commanders and a bunch of other stuff.

This, and the Imperial Storm Trooper utility belt which has all sorts of goodies (grappling hook, extra magazines, etc) for all sorts of situations, and the standard issue E-1 Blaster Rifle. This rifle has 100 shots stored in a detachable box magazine, and is very accurate. The Stock can be removed and the barrel can be shortened quickly to reveal a compact carbine, which has nearly the capabilities of its larger incarnation, and is more weildy in the sometimes cramped interiors of Starships (helpful in close-courters combat in ship bording opperations and such), making it the perfered transformation of the weapon of many. As a standard mount comes a open-sight operture and an off center macro-scope for longrange fire, tho most ISTs are proficient at firing from the hip or shoulder at close ranges using the open sight (more weildy in the close confines of many of the IST's combat environments)

All of this combined with insanely efficient military order and discipine sets ISTs apart, and is the reason why they are feared throughout the galaxy.

Lonestar, Boris

[Drake Tungsten]

All of this combined with insanely efficient military order and discipine sets ISTs apart, and is the reason why they are feared throughout the galaxy.

Fremen and Sardaukar would mop the floor with Stormtroopers...

Dune!!!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kramerman
I couldnt disagree more. Again, I must explain that Storm Troopers are hard corps elite shock troops,

Who fall before the might of the teddy bears.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Lonestar


We do, huh? What episode of B5 was that?(when we saw the vorlon planetkiller in action and/or effects)

I can't give you the episode name/number, but its the one where the planet killers are first put to use. Ivanova reports on it...

"Sir, Carnuba 5 (or whatever it was) is gone."

"You mean we lost contact?"

"No, it's gone...it's not there anymore."

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Who fall before the might of the teddy bears.

they got lucky!


no no, Boris has explained that already. The teddy bears, err, i mean Ewoks (damn, when i was a kid i thought they were so cute... i wanted a pet ewok soooo bad. My heart broke when my mom said they didnt exist... ) distracted the Imperial brigade by luring them out into the jungle, allowing the Rebel assault team to finish their job to defeat the DS shield generator

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

All of this combined with insanely efficient military order and discipine sets ISTs apart, and is the reason why they are feared throughout the galaxy.

Fremen and Sardaukar would mop the floor with Stormtroopers...

Dune!!!

I am only vaguely familiar with Dune... heard good stuff, but the part of the TV movie i saw made it seem kinda boreing... im sure id like it if i watched it all the way through tho. perhaps when i get time...

[Drake Tungsten]

Don't watch it; read the books. No movie can compete with the books...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kramerman
no no, Boris has explained that already.

The whole mission was to defend the generator. Chasing down teddy bears weilding rocks and sticks doesn't advance that objective. That generates yet another deficency in Stormtrooper training.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

The whole mission was to defend the generator. Chasing down teddy bears weilding rocks and sticks doesn't advance that objective. That generates yet another deficency in Stormtrooper training.

Not at all. They were trying to defend the generator by destroying the teddy bear threat. However the Ewok ability to fade away and then strike back again in their home-jungle terrain quickly sent the superior Imperial Force into confusion - causing them to forget about the main threat, the human captures. As A few ST were taken down by surprise, the Ewoks would take their "fire sticks" and use them against the Imperials, killing more of them... slowly weakening the force. The various units, as they advanced into the jungle, probably assured themselves that someone else was taking care of the rebel assualt team back near the bunker, and some were, but not nearly enough. The Imperials would have regrouped, and come to their senses to squash the guerillas, but the captured AT-ST took the imperials by surprise, and was a finishing blow to a fialure of Imperial military protocal.

For that one disasterous defeat of IMperial military forces however, there are dozens of astounding victories. There are billions of ISTs fighting throughout the galaxy, mind you, we only see the ones engaged against the heroic Protagonists who always seem to win...

[GeneralTacticus]

Just a point about Dune that everyone seems to be overlooking - while the SW and B5 people are messing aorund with their moon-sized battlestations and Shadow Death Clouds, the Dunians have worked out how to destroy planets using bombs that can be hauled around by people (albeit using sleds, but still...)

Who needs a Death Star when all you need is small transport ship and a stone burner or two?

[Zulu Elephant]

Going back to the Dune thing

Paul Mua'dib vs Anakin Skywalker

?

[GeneralTacticus]

I'd say the only way Muad'dib could win would be if he used the Voice. PRescience is nothing when you have huge metal poles being hurled at you, or an invisible vice clampign aorund your throat. Besides that, combat has an infinite array of different possible outcomes, which makes predicitng anyhting during it very difficult indeed.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And yes I've seen the same ST. Let's talk about their genocidal plans, shall we? Infecting the Borg, infecting the Founders...gee, what a nice way to win a war! The Empire may be ruthless in conquest, but there's no instances of it using biological weapons to try to wipe out an entire species.

The Federation is, as far as I can tell, a junta wherein personal freedoms are at least as limited as they are under the Empire. So I don't think Federation colonists, once subjected to Imperial rule, would find there being much difference in their way of life.

Definitely, we haven't seen the same ST. First of all the "infection" projects you talk about were discarded for being too much radical, so don't make them guilty for something they didn't do. The difference is that they consider all the posibilities, because the Federation has no prejudices or complexes, unlike the nowadays European democracies. The Federation is a political structure to which any planet of political unit can join willingly, they are by no means a dictatorship or oligarchy. They have a very strong sense of the duty, which is very different from very limited freedom.

[OliverFA]

Originally posted by South killer
I don't choose my favourite sci-fi based on ''which has the biggest ship'' but on ''which is more realistic and intelligent'', and that is Star Trek.

[Master Zen]

Ok, I've been bashing Star Trek too much so I must admit that both series are good, not so much as one being better than the other but rather each being better to a certain people's taste.

Trekkies seem to like being involved in a much more complex and deep universe.

Star Wars fans like myself simply like the "coolness" of it all, it is after all a "galaxy far far away" which we would have liked to live in, especially if it involved being a Han Solo-like smuggler

All said, I would just like to say the Star Wars movies are MUCH better and the characters too.

In all fairness, if there was ever a Star Wars series it would probably suck even more than episodes I and II

Picard and Spock are cool

BTW, Star Wars fans read the Timothy Zahn "secuels", they are old but they are good, real good.

[Sarxis]

They both pretty much suck these days. Its time for a new sci-fi epic.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lonestar


We do, huh? What episode of B5 was that?(when we saw the vorlon planetkiller in action and/or effects)

Like I remember numbers..In the first or second episode in which the fact that the First ones havebegun blowing up planets we are told that those planets are no longer there..to me, that sounds like blown up.

[GePap]

The fact is that the storm troopers did lose to neolithic warriors. For Gods sake, as I said, can't the se troopers call in for indirect fire support?

You say the troopers had to go and take outt he threat the Ewoks were: what threat? you just told us thier armor is immune to ballistic weapons.That mans rocks. So at best, these teddy bears would be no more than small pests. Why couldn't tey just shoot inot the forest from the clearing to scare them away? Why the hell do all the strom troopers leave the one site they need to defend? Plus, if these guys are so elite, why do they all surrender once the generator is gone? could they not have at least kept fighting and desroyed a tiny band of rebels, just to screw them?

I am sorry, but those troopers were crap, and thier aim is horrific: hell, they certaionly would be unable to hit any earthforce marines, far less beat them.

[Boris Godunov]

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron on Endor was not to defend the shield generator, it was to capture the Rebels infiltrators. The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover. So, in the heat of a near-panic over a surprise attack by a numerically superior alien enemy that they really couldn't see and didn't know, they sought cover in the woods. The dense jungle, however, was utterly foreign terrain, and the Ewoks knew it like the back of their hand. Guerilla tactics are quite effective in such situations. It's easy to be the backseat stormtrooper, but put yourself in that situation with what they were likely to know and see what you do!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover.

According to Krammerman, stormtrooper armor is immune to ballistic weapons, so why would they care what the teddy bears wear firing?

[GePap]

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron

The emperor says Legion..were were the rest of them?

The Ewoks were there in very large numbers, firing arrows and rocks from all angles. The Imps were out in the open with no cover.

Kramerman and yourself have both said Ewok weapons could not do anyting to stormtrooper armor: so what if they are out in the open? According to you and him, they are invulnerable to the furball's weapons and thus it would not have mattered at all.

So, in the heat of a near-panic over a surprise attack by a numerically superior alien enemy that they really couldn't see and didn't know, they sought cover in the woods

Crack elite troops don't panic when a bunch of vastly inferior forces with weapons that can't do anything to them (as you have stated) attack them, no matter the numbers.

The dense jungle, however, was utterly foreign terrain, and the Ewoks knew it like the back of their hand. Guerilla tactics are quite effective in such situations

Again, since ewok weapons were useless (as you and Kramerman have stated), all the Guerrila action in the world would not have mattered. These guys are ruthless no? then why follow into a jungle? don't they have sufficient firepower to simply obliterate the surrounding jungle, thus denying the furballs cover and creating kill zones? hell, even the US in vietnam didn;t care that much for the jungle.

Sorry Boris, no dice. Either the teddy bears's rocks could harm the troopers, or not. If so, then what good is thier armor against better weapons? If not, then the troopers acted totally unprofessionaly and nothing lke the Crack troops you and Kramerman and Lonestar say they are..another reason then for why they would lose.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by GePap

Quote:

The mission of the stormtrooper squadron

The emperor says Legion..were were the rest of them?

We don't know what "legion" refers to in terms of absolute numbers. We see the total Imp forces, and it's clearly not a "legion" of our standards. It was several dozen men plus 4 AT-STs. Note that this was not the total Imp forces on Endor, as there was clearly an AT-AT that didn't take part in this fight. Since this was the secret rear entrance to the generator, it's reasonable to assume the bulk of the Imp forces were near the main entrance, which was many km away.

Kramerman and yourself have both said Ewok weapons could not do anyting to stormtrooper armor: so what if they are out in the open? According to you and him, they are invulnerable to the furball's weapons and thus it would not have mattered at all.

When did I say they were invulnerable? To answer, to rocks and arrows, yes, but no matter how good your armor is, when you get hit with large rocks that are in excess of 20 pounds, it will effect you. At any rate, it's not the lethality that matters, it's the mass confusion created by the Ewok surprise attack. Hundreds of rocks and arrows come in from all sides, the Rebels start shooting blasters, etc.

Also, remember that many of the Imps weren't stormtroopers, they were naval troopers who didn't have the armor and were vulnerable.

Crack elite troops don't panic when a bunch of vastly inferior forces with weapons that can't do anything to them (as you have stated) attack them, no matter the numbers.

You repeat three times I stated it, but I never did. And when the enemy outnumbers you overwhelmingly and are hitting you from all sides from a dense jungle so you can't really see them, even elite troops can panic momentarily. Ask the IDF when they are hit with Palestinian stone-throwing kids.

Again, since ewok weapons were useless (as you and Kramerman have stated), all the Guerrila action in the world would not have mattered.

Fourth time you say it...I didn't say it.

These guys are ruthless no? then why follow into a jungle? don't they have sufficient firepower to simply obliterate the surrounding jungle, thus denying the furballs cover and creating kill zones? hell, even the US in vietnam didn;t care that much for the jungle.

The Imps sought cover in the jungle. They were standing in the middle of an open clearing. What, you'd think it was smart to stand there, encircled, and just blindly fire into the woods when the enemy is surrounding you? Keep in mind, they didn't fully know what the capabilities of the Ewoks were to inflict damage on them. They'd have been stupid to stand in the clearing, especially since the rebels were firing on them with blasters, too.

As for aim...as I said a while ago, we see a stormtrooper peg Leia with an off-the-hip shot from 45-60 feet away. Let's see you do that.

[GePap]

4 AT-STs.

To answer, to rocks and arrows, yes, but no matter how good your armor is, when you get hit with large rocks that are in excess of 20 pounds, it will effect you

First of all, the 4 AT-ST's would have been invulnerable to anything the furballs threw at them in the clearing, and seeing how 3 of them were taken out in the forest (May i add by incredibly stupid ways), any sensible commander fo these assets would have stayed in the clearing and provided fire support for the troopers.

Second: You did say elswere that the troopers were immune to the weapons of the Ewoks before, and again( see above) and the only time these guys were hit by 20lb rocks was once they went into the forest.

Also, for the guys wihout armor: why would they, of all people, follow the furballs into the forest? Why not retreat into the inpenetrable bunker behind them? Also, don't stormtroopers have those cute plastic bands we use today to secure prisoners? why are their hands free?

And you still have not addressed the question of kill zones: why on earth would they need to go deep into the forest, when all they have to do is blast a fire zone aorund them? And where is their indirect fire support? How big is this damned compund? I don;t care if that is the rear door: what, is the front door so far away the bigger units in front can't come and lend help? Also, the rebels did not even know about the rear door when they landed: were they goign to take on that AT-AT single handedly? Some confidence, though given the general aim of storm troopers, not wholly missplaced.

Drake:

about the Duneverse, the problem is this: as afr as I know, FTL travel in it depends on spice, which coems only from the otherwise worthless world of Arrakis. what then stops the empire with its DS, or the Vorlons with their planet killers from blowing up Arrakis and destroying all the spice, which they don't need at all (and even if in dune they can see the future, that won't help them take out a DS or a Vorlon planet killer). And that is the nice end: if it is the Shadow planet killer

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by OliverFA


Definitely, we haven't seen the same ST. First of all the "infection" projects you talk about were discarded for being too much radical, so don't make them guilty for something they didn't do. The difference is that they consider all the posibilities, because the Federation has no prejudices or complexes, unlike the nowadays European democracies. The Federation is a political structure to which any planet of political unit can join willingly, they are by no means a dictatorship or oligarchy. They have a very strong sense of the duty, which is very different from very limited freedom.

In Deep Space Nine "area 39" (or whatever) did in fact use a type of bio-warfare on the Dominion, slowly killing off the Founders. The plan would have worked if Basheer hadn't found out about it. Odo then volunteered to take the cure to the great link.

[Drake Tungsten]

Drake:

about the Duneverse, the problem is this: as afr as I know, FTL travel in it depends on spice, which coems only from the otherwise worthless world of Arrakis. what then stops the empire with its DS, or the Vorlons with their planet killers from blowing up Arrakis and destroying all the spice, which they don't need at all (and even if in dune they can see the future, that won't help them take out a DS or a Vorlon planet killer). And that is the nice end: if it is the Shadow planet killer

In the later Dune books, technology becomes available that allows melange to be synthesized. There goes your spice supply problem...