I become afraid of my own anti-Americanism

[Ned]

Der PH, I am very glad you are shocked by what you felt. We Americans are, after all, people even if you think we are misguided at times.

As to the war, we are trying to win this thing with a minimum of casualties on both sides. I hope you appreciate that.

Our goal is to liberate the people of Iraq and disarm Saddam. These are good and just goals even if one believes (naively I think) that they could have been achieved without force.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's a simple reason why you felt pleasure, and it's not hatred of Americans. It's the pleasure one feels when a bully get's his come uppence. Hah! Take that, George Bush!

Che:

So it's fine to beat someone up, if they have bullied others? An eye for an eye?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There's a simple reason why you felt pleasure, and it's not hatred of Americans.

When someone gets pleasure from seeing executed POWs and seeing them bound for a public interview, I'd have to say that it qualifies as hatred of Americans.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Yeah, those feelings you had aren't very attractive, but at least you're man enough to admit you had them - and that they disturbed you. I respect that.

same here. a lessor man would continue his irrational anti-americanism, and nurture it. It is one thing to be anti-war, it is another to be anti-american.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There's a simple reason why you felt pleasure, and it's not hatred of Americans. It's the pleasure one feels when a bully get's his come uppence. Hah! Take that, George Bush!


Then you remember, George is safe, and those are just scared kids. Then you remember why you're against war.

Its all POV, i suppose, but i guess you dont consider Saddam Hussein a bully?

[SlowwHand]

Well, this is KIND of fits.

"Don't hate the black. Don't hate the white.
If you get bit, just hate the bite.
Make sure your heart is beating right. Are you ready ?"
- Sly and The Family Stone

[Zero]

Anyone here who's agst the war but "supports the troops"?

[Pekka]

I definitely have to agree with Kramerman here. It's different thing to be anti-american and anti-war. Anti-war as a cause is good one, against war. How bad can that be in general? The other one is not so cool, doesn't matter what the anti is but if it's continued with nationality or race etc.. well that's just racist.

Some people might have gotten offended by my last posts in this thread. I did not mean that it's cool to feel pleasure seeing those POWs. But I do believe it doesn't make person evil to feel that for a sudden moment, especially if non-american and knows it's not right. If it stops right there, and next time person sees that kind of stuff remembers what happened last time. Also some people just like to see big explosions and bodies and what not.. that's definitely not cool, but not necessarily anti-american.

I think it's been showed here that the Americans are trying to keep casualties low on BOTH sides. If it continues like this, and doesn't last too long, I think we're getting pretty good results here. IF we make big effort together and I really mean together and put words into action, freeing Iraqi people.. really freeing them and not installing another dictator or regime of oppression.. this is definitely worth it. But we must not leave them alone, but support, together.. anti-war or not, the benefits FOR Iraqi people are greater and they must admit it. If we manage to rebuild Iraq fast, support the people, get their own leaders lead the country fast enough, secure their safety and help them grow again.. We have to be carefull not to get greedy though and exploit the country but really free them. Then it's worth it for everyone. I'm going off topic really fast so I quit here.

[Pekka]

I meant to say in my earlier post that anti-war people very often go into being anti-american. And many times they can't even see it

[SlowwHand]

There is no doubt on god's green earth that restraint has been shown.
Without human compassion, Iraq would now be a mirror.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Amesjustin


I see you are as mature as you are intelligent. I don't know where you got that figure but is pile of crap at best. The missiles in question traveled well past the allowed distance into Kuwait. If you are going rebutt my posts and accuse me of not doing my research, I suggest you do yours.



While being a proven liar doesn't necesarily mean you will lie about everything, when Saddam has told NOTHING BUT lies for 12 years about his WMDs, any person whose brain possesses the logic of at least a 6 year old would begin to assume that perhaps what he says should no longer be trusted.

BTW, please tell me what proof you have of the US using chemical weapons in Desert Storm?

I said Kuwait borders with Iraq, and Kuwait is not quite a big country, so the missiles don't have to go far. Very funny you mention that they went further than allowed. So basically what you are saying is that America can fire away from 1500 kilometers away, fire from great height, and do whatever it likes, but (after all it is WAR) Iraq can't fire back (even though it's Kuwait, but well they're allied with the US)???

That makes sense, why don't you demand that the Iraqi troops put down their weapons before you shoot them down, that would make sense indeed!

that number is not a pile of crap, the survey was in the newspaper the other day (and it was a quality paper, not a the Sun kinda ****). A whole while ago National Geographic did a survey amongst students frmo around the world, asking them to point out where 11 countries were situated in the Middle east.. America's youth finished secondlast with just 2-3 out of eleven correct answers before mexico.... Sad thing the countries they had to point out were not Turkmenistan etc, but just ISrael, India, China etc..

You say Saddam over the past 12 years has said nothing BUT lies... Well then Sir, how do you know he lied? have the WMD been found yet? I hope for America's sake that after Iraq has been taken they find WMD...

[Willem]

Originally posted by Calc II
Anyone here who's agst the war but "supports the troops"?

Me. But then I can't totally say that I'm against the war either, since I'll be pleased to see Saddam gone. It's an ambivalent conflict for me in many ways, I've been rather conflicted throughout the whole mess.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Willem


Me. But then I can't totally say that I'm against the war either

well then thats no fun... I cant poke fun at it.

[Pekka]

Trajanus, we know Saddam lied about not having nerv gasses. We know he lied about not having chemical weapons. It was only few days later when he denied these in interview he gave to the world that they were found. That means he has been lying for the whole time.
Although I don't like Bush's rhetorics (because I don't like rhetorics to begin with), but he is right that Saddam has had 12 years to try to be a team player. He has not been doing that. After Saddam, it would be his sons turn. Another oppressive dictator. War was inevitable. And that's better sooner than later.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Trajanus


that number is not a pile of crap, the survey was in the newspaper the other day (and it was a quality paper, not a the Sun kinda ****). A whole while ago National Geographic did a survey amongst students frmo around the world, asking them to point out where 11 countries were situated in the Middle east.. America's youth finished secondlast with just 2-3 out of eleven correct answers before mexico.... Sad thing the countries they had to point out were not Turkmenistan etc, but just ISrael, India, China etc..

I mentioned this another thread myself. Apparently about 1/3 of the kids didn't even know where the Pacific Ocean was.

[Traianvs]

I did not mean that it's cool to feel pleasure seeing those POWs.

You know, having evil thoughts sometimes isn't weird at all, psychologists say anyway. thinking about an old hag in front of you choke on that big piece of meat is not that weird, the difference with crazy people is that you don't mean it.. (I have watched this documentary.. was nice to see that I'm not a sick bastard after all, hihihi )

[Pekka]

Trajanus, yeah, dark side sometimes takes over! But as long as it's not controlling and you can kick it away.. It's normal I think.

[Traianvs]

Yeah, though I like being evil sometimes, in RPG's I can never seem to be good aligned (in the famous BG saga it was possible to be an entirely pure evil character) while at the same time I know pussies that just HAD to be good aligned for some reason...

Luckily in real life I am exactly the opposite

[SlowwHand]

I thought you'd probably booked a flight via that link by now, Trajanus.

You just talk a good game, I guess.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Trajanus
Very funny you mention that they went further than allowed. So basically what you are saying is that America can fire away from 1500 kilometers away, fire from great height, and do whatever it likes, but (after all it is WAR) Iraq can't fire back (even though it's Kuwait, but well they're allied with the US)???

Yes. The UN voted and made Iraqs posession of any missiles with a range of (I believe) 96 miles. The US does not have this restriction.

Originally posted by Trajanus
that number is not a pile of crap, the survey was in the newspaper the other day (and it was a quality paper, not a the Sun kinda ****). A whole while ago National Geographic did a survey amongst students frmo around the world, asking them to point out where 11 countries were situated in the Middle east.. America's youth finished secondlast with just 2-3 out of eleven correct answers before mexico.... Sad thing the countries they had to point out were not Turkmenistan etc, but just ISrael, India, China etc..

Having not seen the paper and not getting the name so I could look for myself, I stand by what I said earlier there is a vast difference between 87% of all Americans not knowing where Iraq is, and American schoolchildren only knowing where 3 out of 11 Middle Eastern Countries are.

Originally posted by Trajanus
You say Saddam over the past 12 years has said nothing BUT lies... Well then Sir, how do you know he lied? have the WMD been found yet? I hope for America's sake that after Iraq has been taken they find WMD...

The UN themselves confiscated materials used for the creation of WMD from Iraq in I believe 1996 - right before Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors and declared that Iraq no longer had to abide by any of the UN treaties.

There is not a doubt in my mind we will find WMDs. My question to you is will you agree the war was justified if Saddam does possess or God forbid uses some of these weapons? Will you still blame the US or will you see Saddam for the threat to the entire world that he is?

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
There is no doubt on god's green earth that restraint has been shown.
Without human compassion, Iraq would now be a mirror.

interestingly said

[Traianvs]

There is not a doubt in my mind we will find WMDs. My question to you is will you agree the war was justified if Saddam does possess or God forbid uses some of these weapons? Will you still blame the US or will you see Saddam for the threat to the entire world that he is?

No I will never find this war justified.

If he had possessed WMD America wouldn't have attacked Iraq. After all that's what I hear even from rightwing conservatives here, that attacking NK would be nasty as they could nuke SK or Japan. You still remember that you are trying to "prevent" him from finishing WMD?

If he uses WMD I'm not sure, in any case he won't be able to use the WMD "en masse" as he doesn't have long distance rockets/ or bombers to launch or drop these weapons so he can only deploy chemicals etc in a limited area, which would equal regular bombs imo.

As I said before, you better find WMD after that war or you'll be fooked


And to Slowwhand, why on earth would I be a human shield, I'm scared to death of war, I am so ****ing glad conscription has been eliminated in Belgium, so I'm not drafted in the army!! (if it still existed I wouldn't be here posting and enjoying college life, I would be mopping up toilets and peeling potatoes )
Also those people don't do it to protect Saddam, they do it as an act of protest to the Bush administration, in order to save civilian an humanitarian targets, but they couldn't do that so they left.

[Lincoln]

This thread reminds me of something that Alexander Solszinetson said. Regardless of how much evil a particular leader was doing there was always someone who would justify his a actions by saying "but he is such a good family man." By the same token people here are motivated by pure hatred for the United States but after going down their list of the evils the US has supposedly committed they glibly say; "but I am not anti-American." Or they say that they only are "opposed" to the current administration. But I still recall the same anti-American scentiment when Bill Clinton was president but for other reasons. Why don't you all do what the thread-started did and admit the truth? You certainly are not fooling anyone but yourselves. Three quarters of the people in America support the president. You don't just hate George Bush, you hate the American people.

[rmsharpe]

Originally posted by Der PH
Nothing exciting so far, but when I saw the US soldiers captured by the Iraqis on TV, my first reaction was pleasure and satisfaction.

Let's see how much you'd like to be in the human shredder, huh? How about Aushwitz? Does that name ring a bell?

I wanted the US to get a bloody nose in Iraq so much, that I actually enjoyed the obvious suffering of those POWs.

To me, you are a sick and perverted person. Disgusting to me and probably the 300 million of my other countrymen.

At the moment I feel like an as***le, maybe I am one.

Don't worry, you are.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Trajanus
No I will never find this war justified.

What if he fired a Nuclear SCUD, it misfired as they tend to do, and landed somewhere in Belgium?

Originally posted by Trajanus
If he had possessed WMD America wouldn't have attacked Iraq. After all that's what I hear even from rightwing conservatives here, that attacking NK would be nasty as they could nuke SK or Japan. You still remember that you are trying to "prevent" him from finishing WMD?

He has chem and Bio WMDs now. I don't think he has real nukes yet, but I am sure he has 'Dirty Bomb' capabailities. The most frightening aspect of this is the possibility (likelihood) of selling this type of weaponry to other US enemies like Al Qaeda.

NK is a truly frightening situation. Check out their official governments site at http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm These guys DO have the capability of nuking the west coast of the US, and may have a leader more volatile than Saddam. This is a much bigger threat Than Iraq in my opinion.

Originally posted by Trajanus
If he uses WMD I'm not sure, in any case he won't be able to use the WMD "en masse" as he doesn't have long distance rockets/ or bombers to launch or drop these weapons so he can only deploy chemicals etc in a limited area, which would equal regular bombs imo.

Not if they continue to use the terroristic tactics they have been observed using thus far.

[SlowwHand]

Never means never, Amesjustin.

As in, Trajanus needs to just follow the suggestion of Lincoln, and be done with it.
He will NEVER get the picture.

[Spiffor]

Lincoln :
I think antiamericanism first comes from the American policies, and then becomes incarnated in the American people. The hatred for America hardly begins with the hatred for American people, simply because most laymen abroad don't have close contacts with Americans.

I consider my experience of antiamericanism interesting, because I've yet to find someone who lived one similar :
My antiamericanism is old and deeply rooted in my identity (it begun at the end of elem. school - please notice such a case was a rarity even in France). At the beginning, it came with the sheer deception of discovering how the Land of the Free wasn't the perfect place that was depicted by the movies I've seen, and that was lauded by some of my teachers.

This deep disappointment turned for some years into a childish hatred, which became eventually a strong criticism towards America and the American society, of which I highlighted the elements that displease me (no welfare, weapons, religion & bigotry, messianism, arrogance etc.)

Today I suppose my antiamericanism is grown-up. I still criticize the policies of the US, as you may have noticed , and I am very distant towards the specificity of the American society, which is a very high individualism. However, I try to get closer to Americans despite these separation lines, and I try to understand you Yanks better.

It is now me who repeats to my friends "Yes, I am sure there are some intelligent Americans, I have met them"

[Dis]

well the good thing is you admit and understand these feelings (to the original post).

I found myself drifting to an anti-american point of view in the late 90's. Most of that was just Apolyton influence.

9/11 changed a lot of that for me. I realize there are people who want to see me dead. They don't care if I'm anti-america or pro-america. It makes no difference to them. They want me dead.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Lincoln :
I think antiamericanism first comes from the American policies, and then becomes incarnated in the American people. The hatred for America hardly begins with the hatred for American people, simply because most laymen abroad don't have close contacts with Americans.

I consider my experience of antiamericanism interesting, because I've yet to find someone who lived one similar :
My antiamericanism is old and deeply rooted in my identity (it begun at the end of elem. school - please notice such a case was a rarity even in France). At the beginning, it came with the sheer deception of discovering how the Land of the Free wasn't the perfect place that was depicted by the movies I've seen, and that was lauded by some of my teachers.

This deep disappointment turned for some years into a childish hatred, which became eventually a strong criticism towards America and the American society, of which I highlighted the elements that displease me (no welfare, weapons, religion & bigotry, messianism, arrogance etc.)

Today I suppose my antiamericanism is grown-up. I still criticize the policies of the US, as you may have noticed , and I am very distant towards the specificity of the American society, which is a very high individualism. However, I try to get closer to Americans despite these separation lines, and I try to understand you Yanks better.

It is now me who repeats to my friends "Yes, I am sure there are some intelligent Americans, I have met them"

Well, let's be friends then.

[SlowwHand]

Exactly, Dissident.

And they'll kill people like Che and David Floyd, as quick as they'll kill me.

And in a perverse way, that is SO funny.