Balancing the Howie

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

A 10% PCR for the two parties in question would amount to 5 and 3 posts...

Though I think Ming tends to give out PCRs in 100s not % for low level posters. Or in this case 10s maybe.

[Elok]

Hey, I mentioned my PC as an aside, not as a brag in and of itself...
Anyway, to get back on topic, I think the ability of a dark-age civ to acquire howitzers this way is just a stupid gameplay flaw, not meant to symbolize anything. My earlier comments were just whiny sarcasm. It would be nice if there were some way of fixing it by abusing the game's mechanics somehow, but I can't think of any way of doing it.

[Scouse Gits]

I'm
You have Howies and they are in the Dark Ages - they steal robotics - OK - I can live with that - three turns later they produce Howies - very - what are they doing on this planet three turns later?

SG[1] -- ++ The SG Wonder ++

[Elok]

I was playing at chieftain at the time, and not too experienced. To be honest, I'm a bad player even now; I've always been more of a builder than a fighter.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Elok
Hey, I mentioned my PC as an aside, not as a brag in and of itself...
Anyway, to get back on topic, I think the ability of a dark-age civ to acquire howitzers this way is just a stupid gameplay flaw, not meant to symbolize anything. My earlier comments were just whiny sarcasm. It would be nice if there were some way of fixing it by abusing the game's mechanics somehow, but I can't think of any way of doing it.

You really wanna fix the problem of the AI stealing your advanced tech? Go into the RULES.TXT file and change it so the diplomats and spies have no ability to move (I don't think that would crash the game ...). Or, set it so spies cease to exist with the achievement of "Future Tech."

I haven't done any of the above, having settled for making diplos and spies subject to ZOC rules and reducing their movement rate slightly.

Gatekeeper

[Elok]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
You really wanna fix the problem of the AI stealing your advanced tech? Go into the RULES.TXT file and change it so the diplomats and spies have no ability to move (I don't think that would crash the game ...). Or, set it so spies cease to exist with the achievement of "Future Tech."

I haven't done any of the above, having settled for making diplos and spies subject to ZOC rules and reducing their movement rate slightly.

Gatekeeper

I meant the specific problem in question, namely, making it so that the AI has to research most or all relevant prerequisites before applying a stolen tech. Removing diplomats entirely takes a very interesting element away from the game.

[DrSpike]

Hehe diplos are part of the game.....you shouldn't remove them. You can always station lookouts and try and stop them encroaching (they can only move 1 square if the terrain is chosen well). Of course some may sneak through, but the AI will probably not have enough production (even with cheating) to really cause an empire problems.

[ColdWizard]

fighters make for good dip/spy killers

[player1]

I've talked with my old friend with whom I play Civ2 Hoteast what is needed to make Howitzer balanced.

At the end, we argeed that it neeeds:
-HP lowered to 2, which means lower defese and attack (before its defense was more effecitve then infantry)
-removed ignore city walls ability (if you wanna bypass walls, use spies or bombers)

Now, it's unit about +50% more powerful then Armor on attack with movment of 2 and cost 70.

This will also encourage use of air units against walled cities.

P.S.
That walled bonus is pretty tough in Civ2.
It's no starge that unit which removes it can be so powerful (especialy since it's only such unit unaffected by Fighters or SAM).

[Bob_Smurf42]

Good suggestions, player1. I'll have to try those at some point. IMHO, howitzers should be stronger on attack than tanks, as they are more mobile(in real life), but more mobility(usually) means lighter armor and so less defence. Otherwise, you get something of an überunit.
Re: spies/dips, they are indeed one of the best parts of the game. In fact, it is possible(though difficult) to conquer the world using only spies/dips. I agree with Elok that it doesn't seem right for a Bronze Age civ to be making howitzers, but when they're that backwards, they shouldn't be taking any of your cities anyway.
(+1)

[Gatekeeper]

Diplomats and spies are enabled in my game. Perhaps it's just another Macintosh quirk, but the AI empires are quite efficient at making *immediate* use of stolen technology.

Furthermore, I've had it where the AI just keeps sending diplomats and spies against a position you've fortified so it can't get past. Basically, the AI stacks and stacks these units so you can expel them and the whole time the AI is getting pissed off at you for not letting its units through. Eventually, it attacks you. It is so predictable. So what I do is try to prevent such obvious pre-programmed responses from developing in the first place; i.e., I've edited the abilities of the diplos and spies. Making them subject to ZOC is the best move by far, IMHO.

Gatekeeper

[Paradox]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
..... So what I do is try to prevent such obvious pre-programmed responses from developing in the first place; i.e., I've edited the abilities of the diplos and spies. Making them subject to ZOC is the best move by far, IMHO.

Gatekeeper

What are the specific changes to rules.txt that would implement this change? i.e exact lines to be added/modified?

[Straybow]

OK, I guess I'll toss in my two bits. If the Howitzer were really that powerful then we'd put these guns on our MBTs.

The Attack factor is more than just the effectiveness of the gun. Maybe the howie includes light infantry protection and spotter squads. Still, a huge factor is the ignore walls ability. I'd lower the Attack strength back to 10, hp to 2, keep the 2 move and ignore walls.

[ColdWizard]

Originally posted by Paradox
What are the specific changes to rules.txt that would implement this change? i.e exact lines to be added/modified?

to take out the ZOC immunity change these lines:

Diplomat, Esp, 0, 2.,0, 0a,0d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 6, Wri, 000000000000010
Spy, nil, 0, 3.,0, 0a,0d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 6, Esp, 000000000000011

to this:

Diplomat, Esp, 0, 2.,0, 0a,0d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 6, Wri, 000000000000000
Spy, nil, 0, 3.,0, 0a,0d, 1h,1f, 8,0, 6, Esp, 000000000000001

[Gatekeeper]

Paradox:

The code provided by ColdWizard (the "Wiz" ) should satisfy your needs, but make sure to have a backup copy of the RULES.TXT file before messing with it. Particularly so if you decide to change the Universal Values (first-hand experience with this one).

Gatekeeper

[Paradox]

Aye captains tis all in order and thank you...

Ive read through the rules file (perhaps glanced is more appropriate ) and guess i could have figured it out from the comments aptly contained within it, but having sufficiently overdosed with all the posts in the strategy/general forums of this site ive engorged recently and ( may i hasten to add with no disrespect to this esteemed site ) civfanatics...

I most certainly commend/implore any new (and old i have no doubt ) civ2 gamer who really wants to understand the how's and why's of this incredibly addictive game, to avail himself of the wealth of information/hints/tips/expertise that begs to be digested within the pages of these forums

I for one, having only been playing the game for a couple of weeks, am already able to tackle Diety level with somewhat less than trepidation...and hope to soon be comfortable enough to venture out into the real world of MP to tackle more reputable human foe...

[Straybow]

Just compare the howie to the arty. There's only one special ability flagged, so if you want to undo it replace the 1 with a 0. I would only change attack strength and HP.

original lines for comparison:
Artillery,    Rob, 0,  1.,0, 10a,1d,  2h,2f,  5,0,  0, Too, 000000000000000
Howitzer,     nil, 0,  2.,0, 12a,2d,  3h,2f,  7,0,  0, Rob, 000000001000000

Howitzer,     nil, 0,  2.,0, 10a,2d,  2h,2f,  7,0,  0, Rob, 000000001000000

[player1]

Looks still to good if you ask me.

Now, that just my opionion, but no other atrillery-type unit has same advantage as Howitzer.

And that's bypassing the walls.

With no penalities.

Only other units which can do that are air units:
And they are counterbalanced by:
-vulnerability by fighters
-SAM
-only one attack per turn for bombers

So Howitzer just gives you something for nothing (effect without countereffect).

That's what makes them unbalanced.

[Bob_Smurf42]

Well, unbalanced or not, w/o ingnore walls the howie is just a slightly beefed-up artillery.

[Straybow]

Player1, if you don't have city walls (often the case) the howie's power makes no difference anyway.

Howies can't compare to Dip/Spy powers though. And talk about no "balance," the only defense against Investigation, Sabotage, Bribe/Revolt, Poison, and Nuke is to prevent the unit from reaching your city. Having a Dip or Spy stationed in a city provides a little defense against Stealing Tech, but no other powers can be countered.

Incite Revolt cost depends only on the size of the city, distance from the capital, and form of government. IIRC having a Courthouse increases the cost. Otherwise number and type of improvements or units present has no effect.

Removing the "ignore ZOC" power at least makes 'em work for it. I let them keep their powers so the AI has a chance, and allow myself only Investigate, Sabotage, and Embassy functions.

[player1]

Originally posted by Bob_Smurf42
Well, unbalanced or not, w/o ingnore walls the howie is just a slightly beefed-up artillery.

If you keep thier HP bonus, they are 80% better then arty and with 2 movment. And are cheaper then Armor.

If you lower HP to, then it's 20% better then Arty and movmet of 2. (but with about 50% better then Armor on offense)

But what can you expect, it costs just 70 shields (cheaper then Armor). If it's cheaper then Armor why should it be more usefull then Armor? (that extra movment point means a lot for this unit)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Give 'em (howies) move 1... that makes it harder for the human player to defend them if the city doesn't fall, and takes away the tactic of attacking and then capturing the city with the damaged unit, healing it (and using it to attack the partisans).

Really, limiting the howitzer will mainly be a handicap for the human player, as the AI doesn't use them effectively. Make the howitzer less handy for the human player to lean on, and make cruise missiles cheaper (for example) to give the AI something decent to counter with.

[Bob_Smurf42]

yeah, the AU does seem to use an awful lot of cruise missles.
And 2 moves does a lot for any ground unit in any stage of the game.

[Straybow]

I almost never use Cruise Missiles except for when I spot an AI BB, or an Armor in a hill fortress. AI doesn't seem to make AEGIS CLs very often. I've found that Jets (Stealth Fighters) are sufficient for most purposes. If you push them past the point of no return you can often take out 3-4 enemy units instead of just one, and it only costs 25% more than CM.

Dropping howie to 2 HP is enough to make them take enough damage that they can't move after attacking. Then the 2 MP only makes them capable of attacking at full strength after advancing to the target.