100b or 100g?

[Cliff]

This post is part of the ongoing early landing discussion and it's about different approaches to ELG's.

What should be the priorities in the late BC's and early AD's? In many games I have tried to maximize science early in the game thinking I could not afford to fall behind in science at this stage. I used the 1AD date as a milestone and I wanted to have 30-35 techs by then to consider a pre 1000AD landing possible. But a high science rate means a low tax rate and this limits what you can build.

Solo's approach is to build only a handful cities with temples and one bigger SSC with ST and tax and science improvements. I have read your very comprehensive post, or book, and it is great stuff! Additionally he uses caravans early in the game to get some money and science. The early caravans normally bring in 100-200g.

A disadvantage with Solo's method is that it requires several techs including medicine, sanitation and probably seafaring before he can grow his SSC which is his main priority for the early game. This forces him to play early Republic and to have a high science rate early in the game. If those techs were given to us at the start his method would be outstanding.

Now, if you can find other sources of income this method is still probably the best for ELG's. In a normal game with huts you can send explorers to deserted continents and pop huts. But in a no huts game this is no longer possible.

So, it is time to ask the question from the title of this thread: What is worth most early in the game, 100 beakers or 100 gold? You can't get both.

Unless there is a tech you must have now, beakers are just accumulated in the big beaker pot. There is a certain (large) number of beakers you need in the whole game to get all the techs including Superconductor and Fusion power. Late techs cost maybe 1500 beakers so compared to that, 100b is not worth much. After all, a big empire with 30 semi large cities and a big SSC will produce more than 1500b/turn and additionally 5-10 freights can easily be delivered every turn, producing another 1500b or more. Compared to that, 100b is nothing. Even 500b is nothing. 100g on the other hand can be used to rush build city improvements, caravans for wonders, or settlers for new cities.

If we choose a different strategy with prolonged Monarchy and some sort of ICS to start with, and wait to build an SSC and not switching to Republic until all cities are ready to instantly grow to size 12 or more, we will have substantially fewer techs but we have a bigger potential for the rest of the game.

Additionally, since we are slow researchers, the AI may acquire several techs that we need. A problem with fast early research is that the AI is unlikely to provide us with useful techs.

[SCG]

growing cities past 7 require extra improvements or you can no longer have 100% science. courthouses help get to 8 which is the max without an aquaduct. growing to 12 would require monotheism and theology and an entertainer or higher luxuries (or you could build JSB's). for 12 content people with 0 luxuries, you need 1 content, 2 (temple), 4 (colosseum), 2 (JSBach), 3 (Catherdral/Mikes without communism or with courthouse) discovering at least 2 extra techs and building 2 extra wonders does take a bit of time. Some players have experimented with Mikes and figured at best they break even - might be worth it if you are especially cash rich so as to spare another 8 caravans?

raising luxuries devestates the science out of the SSC, making it very hard to get 2 discoveries per turn, which is the key to early landings. One other thing to keep in mind is that with current planning, you only need to raise luxuries for 4-5 turns to get cities to size 7-8, that doubles to get to size 12, as well as needing at least 1 (aquaduct) and possibly 2-3 extra structures (marketplace/bank) and thereby not building the caravans that those represent (gold andbeakers). Normally a very sound strategy - for early landings, you'd probably find it a bit too time consuming.

just my 2 cents worth

[Bloody Monk]

Cliff,

You should try your ideas if that is the only way for you to understand this process. But think on this:

1) Time is the #1 priority in an EL Game. No matter how you play the turns, you will have to get ~67 techs to launch.

2) From the received wisdom dept--if you slow your research, the AI will mimic you and slow theirs.

3) Discussing the marginal utility of 100 beakers early in the game, you make a mistake by using end game numbers for next tech requirements. 100:1500 is meaningless; whereas, 100:280 is golden. (pun intended)

4) Distinguish between what you want and what you need. We all come to the EL game with the "baggage" of our prior experience about what works. There is no question about "getting there;" but, to get there quickly--early--some old favorites, staples of our previous games, must be discarded in the name of "traveling light".

5) Once you try it, you may find the discomfitting and counter intuitive aspects of the new to be less of a problem.

But, come on in, the game is fun!! I especially like the way this style requires me to think about why I do things and in what sequence.

Monk

[solo]

Cliff,

An excellent analysis, and a facinating alternative strategy. I continue to be impressed what you and many of the others are able to do with this kind of opening, and am making many changes in the early part of my game in #3. I think comparison games have already brought out a number new ideas and that my guide is already starting to become obsolete!

I wait to see if you can make up the tech deficit in time for the earliest landing.

My methods were developed when huts were available in earlier games, and I am finding I must make some changes in these comparison games without huts.

[Elephant]

Going for fast early growth by emphasizing Gold over Beakers is worth thinking about. In reading some older AC attempts like Ribannah's I noticed an early emphasis on gold over beakers, like building Marketplace before Library. Solo's EL strategy pays special attention to keeping the city count under the extra unhappy citizen limit: 4 in Desp, 6 in Mon, 8 in Rep, 10 in Dem. ICSing is going to require extra resources to keep extra people content. Of course, with dozens of cities, you may generate those extra resources easily and have more than enough left over to "make up the time" in mid-game tech research.

Adding Marco Polo to an early ICS would be powerful, as you can trade for maps, establish alliances early, and rely on AI research to bypass techs like Masonry, Horse, Pottery and WarCode. Hanging Gardens is going to be the first priority, though, to make ICS work, so you may end up in a "caravan crunch" trying to build MPE, ST, CO and getting trading going. I had been trying the Mon-MPE route in EL1 & 2; I am going to explore the Early Republic issues (which I see as lower Shield production and doubled Settler Food cost; oh, add on loss of Martial Law too) in #3 to compare. I did NOT try massive ICS, which would be worth a shot.

[Elephant]

In talking about alternate strategies, one I have been trying to explore in test games is the idea of having a second large city close to the SSC which sets up early reciprocal trade routes using the Road and RR route bonuses. The advantage of this strategy is that you can instantly build RR links, SuperHighways, and Airport in both cities when the techs become available, surpassing the 50% bonus for working with an AI city, even using a station. The AI will not grow as much, will not emphasize trade tiles, and will not build critical improvements quickly (perhaps I should say AT ALL...). I am trying to compare this to a second city on a different continent as well, but the amount of experimentation is a bit much.

This strategy is terrain-dependent; EL2 had a good 4-special spot not far to the north of the start (which I almost lost to the Barbs early on); I have not analyzed EL3 yet (thank you again for HutFinder, SG(x)!).

Credit for this idea must go to others, notably La Fayette.

[Bloody Monk]

Elephant,

This is an interesting idea if the second city has four "trade specials" but even with high base trade, the gold/beaker bonus will lag a foreign delivery for much of the game until superhighways and airports become available, I believe.

You might also have a problem if they do not demand each others goods. And keeping supply lists unblocked would be harder with a lot of "domestic" trade.

So many possible trade-offs....

Monk

[Elephant]

I'm not going for a high Delivery Bonus, I'm looking for an alternate plan when I cannot build a RD/RR to a nearby AI city for ongoing Trade Route arrows, such as when I am alone on an island or the other civ is over the Dateline (just learning about that one...). The helper/colony cities will deliver for the Bonus; I'm trying to increase the SSC Trade Route arrows domestically. Sometimes, after establishing three routes with a high-trade domestic city, the SSC commodities will change and I can build and deliver far away without disturbing the existing routes. This is sweet payoff!

[solo]

Elephant,

I agree about having 3 undisturbed SSC routes with the RR bonus simplying subsequent SSC trades and read with interest your other posts here.

One more idea is to set up a "bait" city with a good RR connection to the SSC and hope the barbs or an AI attack and take it. Trade arrows and payments for three routes will almost double. I tried this in EL #3, to get a little extra, but so far there have not been any takers. If this city remains mine, it's still another good city adding to my cause, so it's hard to lose by trying this.

As you mentioned, La Fayette has made a specialty of using twin cities, and maybe he can add some insight about doing it this way.

Looking at #2, it's too bad you missed the deadline, but I'm happy to hear you've committed more time to #3.

I am almost done with my medium map game, and my opinion of the value of its SSC site has only increased after playing further. My approach in this one has been to try for 100b and 100g, and so far this is almost working. I'm still missing something to get things the way I think is possible.

[Cliff]

SCG,

Actually my plan was to have 70% science and 30% luxuries late in the game. I have a rather detailed plan of how to achieve what I want but in comparison game #3 I have already had to modify this plan somewhat.

I will also not settle for 8-10 cities but build many more. In the current game I have built 32 cities by 1AD and that will do for a while. Maybe I will add one of those... what did Solo call them?... tiny cities whose only purpose is to secure an advance from freights. Every other city should be size 15-20 and have a market, harbor, library, aqueduct and sewer system. The larger ones might need a temple or a colloseum. Additionally, I will build MC and JSB and use mostly domestic trade to get three trade routes in every city quickly.

Monk,

I have read your post in the comparison game thread as well but I would just like to point a few things out.

First of all this is in fact a new strategy (for ELG's) that I just came up with. I know about Solo's method and I have tried it myself in "normal" games with OK results (my best landing was 908AD, deity small map). However, without huts and starting techs it is much more difficult. The earliest landings I could find in the ELG comparison game threads was in the 1100AD-1200AD range. In a normal power democracy game I will land in 1500AD or so and that is not too far away from these other dates. If the power democracy strategy would be modified to produce the earliest landing date possible rather than the biggest civilization possible it is not unreasonable to think that it could produce say a 1000AD landing. These modifications would be to stop expansion at some point and only build a limited number of city improvements and only focus on trade arrows and not mining hills etc for extra production.

A few more words on my plan. You mentioned 67 techs but I have calculated with 80 techs including several off path techs. By 500AD I want to have all cities at their maximum sizes and with the necessary improvements. I also want a road and ship network for easy caravan transportation. I want 30 techs and the government should be Democracy. This is where I will max science and start to discover two techs per turn for the rest of the game. That means all research should be done by 1000AD.

Solo,

It was the tough restrictions (no huts, no starting techs) and the "late" landing dates in the 1100's that made me come up with this idea. I read some of your old posts where pre 500AD landings were common and my approach has no chance of achieving this even if huts and extra techs are available.

My strategy is till new and I have already made some mistakes in ELG #3 including waiting too long before switching to Republic. By 1AD most cities were size 3 and had an elvis. Republic and a low luxuries rate would have made cities content without elvii thanks to the powerful double unhappy citizen. This guy is as good as a content citizen when using luxuries and having HG. The ordinary unhappy citizen on the other hand is a bad boy.

Elephant,

Just as I said in my comment to Solo, keeping the number of cities under the riot factor limit is good, but exceding this limit very much is also good since it produces double unhappy citizens. If my assumptions are right, with 30 democratic cities each city will have a double unhappy citizen. This is good when luxuries are applied.

[solo]

Cliff,

Your insight into the weakness of my early play was very helpful to me in making some changes to that part of my game. Thanks for the insights!

It's certainly true that what worked very well with huts and several free starting techs was not ideally suited for these no hut games without any techs at the start.

So I've cooked up a new opening strategy to replace the old one, which produced excellent results in ELG #3. See the game thread for the summary and for more details.

How goes your game? I would have thought that no huts would have made any ICS variant take too long. I'm still intrigued about how well this approach is working, since I think others have tried similar approaches many times using huts and without breaking the 1000 AD barrier.

[La Fayette]

Here it is:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=30992

Unfortunately samson wrote that he had tested it and found it slightly less performing than RR to an AI city.

samson's word is like god's word: I stopped using it

Perhaps I give it a try in ELCG #3.

[Elephant]

Thanks, La Fayette, I knew I had read it before somewhere in conjunction with your name but could not remember when. I'll review the analysis and compare to my EL#2 game. My interest is when you know you cannot do the RR to AI plan, what is the next best option: all overseas or RR to 2nd SSC. The benefit of using a domestic 2nd SSC is that you can build SH and AP within a turn or two of getting the techs, which should further boost the trade routes in the end game. I don't think this will pay off in the mid game before RR, but from there on it should work.

I have not started on EL#3 yet; I am probably only going to get to do Medium anyway.

[SlowThinker]

Cliff,
I play ELG #2 with a similar plan like you.

The main goal is to get 2 techs per turn in late game, one from caravans, another one from cities.

The idea is to get a huge economy first. You need to collect some huge amount of beakers (30,000?) so that you are able to build a spaceship, but the effect will be equal if you will collect them during all 200 turns of the game or only last 30 turns. So in the beginning my research is not routed towards spaceship but towards growth - I want Monarchy, Trade, Wonder techs, Republic in right time, that's all.

I played an ICS first 6 cities, now it is 800 BC, I have MPE, I am under Monarchy, 11 cities, two of them 3-sized, others 1 or 2-sized. Next plan is HG (to be able to build many cities under monarchy), maybe Pyramids if enough gold from tributes, then Mike, Republic, Bach, SSC wonders.
I plan democracy with 30 cities (i.e. 1 black hat in every city).

I will differentiate a SSC and one or more 'caravan cities' - i.e. cities that send or acquire caravans. Ideal 'caravan cities' has size 20, ideal SSC has size 36. With Mike and Bach 'caravan cities' need only Colloseum so that they can WLTxD to size 20, then they may be in disorder every second turn.

[Elephant]

My conclusion about the "twin cities" idea is that it does nudge ahead of overseas AI and overseas colony trade routes after SuperHighways, but it takes more work to get the Road and Rail connections complete compared to using a Station city near a same-continent AI. It is pretty powerful once the second city is over size 15, and you can rushbuy SH in both cities right after Auto for a nice juicy trade jump. I added another big home city later, but messed it up with a poorly planned overseas freight to a size 12 AI. I might try laying cities along a line some day to see if I can get four in a row for an easy KeyRail path.