Yang the MONSTER!!!

Flare · April 7, 2003, 09:43

Well, looks like I have just been shown an example of how Yang can become such a monster faction. after reading the thread about how to play Morgan (& learning a few things myself), I decided to give Morgan a try. Game settings are huge planet, moist landmass, average everything else, *techsteal on* (big thing in this game!). Morgan, dee, Lai, Zac, Yang, the Caretakers, & the Upsurpers. I started out on a set of middle sized islands (now joined together to form a contenent thanks to the WP!!!

), and begain the average builder expansion. Tech buildup was slow. Finally met both Yang & Lai, we exchanged tech, maps, & com links after a bit. Lai was not in a spectacular position, but Yang WAS! Zac was above him, the Caretakers were to his left, & the Upsurpers were to his right. Zac was the tech demon through most of the game (I am now, thanks to superior planning, a SSC, boreholes & a pact with Zac!

), but then the war between him & Yang started! Tech steal came into the limelight from that minute on. Yang begain exchanging bases with all three of his opponents, becoming the second highest tech leader behind myself. What is so scary is that Yang has beaten me out of three techs, has fusion, plasma shard, air power, & the second most amount of bases. I descied to ICS Morgan for the fun of it!

I keep on thinking about what a human player could do in such a position, while being VERY greatful that Yang is on the other side of the world. What are your Yang stories? Either playing him or playing against him. Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,
Kevin

Edit to fix misspelled word(S).

Jamski · April 7, 2003, 09:50

My first Trancend win was playing as Yang. I tried to ICS, and then got hit by the inefficiency (even worse on Trancend) which really hurt until I had Childrens Creches up and running. I'll also never forget this game because Deirdre used a PB on my best base (with HSA and SuperCollider) and I had a meat grinder war with Morgan, where I had to put tachyon fields on every base.

-Jam

Lazerus · April 7, 2003, 13:49

Yang rules

The Hive seems to be the only faction i can truely play since i like my strategy based around a large army,high industry and growth. Played 2 ip games against pirates now, in first game i'm the strength of 2nd and 3rd place players put together with a pop almost 3 times that of 2nd place (monsoon with +3 growth, how great is that ...

) and in the 2nd game i've killed 1 AI, and 2 others have payed me off ... until my fleet has crossed my empire

these fights were early on so hurt growth aswell but still managed to keep a clear lead in power charts and obtaining all important SP's. Currently in a pbem as Yang aswell, power charts say I'm the leader, but i think its mainly due to population since i'd say i'm around 2/3 outta 5 ... whole area is dry and not much land

going to hopefully make some once i have the WP
A note about the AI, excluding monsoon interferance Yang will nearly always emerge as the dominant leader if there are some other AI near him as the large standing army and high industry enables him to simply overwhelm AI builder factions.

Suffering Inefficiency with Yang ? no negatives apply to him. You mean the drone limits for number of bases ? 1-1-1-police are your answer. Why is it deidre always starts next to Yang aswell ? I'm always at war with her within 50years thanks to planned

*awaits Frankychan and co.

Flubber · April 7, 2003, 15:56

I played the Hive in a Battleearth-- PBEM --played on an earth map with the University (around Moscow), Morgan ( North America) and Drones ( western Europe) controlled by humans while the AI were the Usurpers (Australia) and their submissives Miriam (South America) and the Cult (Africa).

We were all a bit afraid of what we had been told was souped up AI start position so we shared tech almost from the beginning. This turned out to be a strategic error by the uni and morganites. I got the WP and the PTS and just started ICSing like crazy with crawlers everywhere . Infrastructure was ignored initially as all I built were troops, pods and formers. Once each base had 4 supported units, it was pretty much all pods and crawlers until my interior was well developed and the distance to colony sites grew.

Despite an inability to effectively pop-boom, I just kept on churning out pods and EVERY base had 2-3 formers. I started in approxiametely China and grew quickly north to claim territory toward the University ( and avoid hostile AI to the south). For the longest time, all I did was grow -- Yang with tech parity is simply awesome--

Finally two of the others ( Morgan-Uni) stopped sharing tech and we went to war. I probed the uni for the tech they would not share and killed their empire in just a few turns ( airpower era with massive lead in numbers of units). I made peace with the drones while dropping a couple of bases in Alaska and started harrassment attacks on Morgan in America. Meanwhile I took Africa from the AI and I was just munching my way up through South America when my opponents called it quits.

The souped up Usurpers were never a factor

Lessons

1. The hive with tech parity early is a danger to everyone. Do not give them tech unless pacted to the end.

2. The WP is a godsend for the Hive. I sacrificed units to ensure I got it and the massive terraforming began.

3. The PTS can also be HUGE. With most factions, the ability to pop-boom easily makes this Project a minor one but for the Hive it can be a necesssary part of faster population growth.

Well thats one Hive game for me . . . I don't play them great or anything but they can be fun

CEO Aaron · April 7, 2003, 17:38

AI Yang is always strong because the AI is horrible at running builder factions, often running itself out of minerals through outrageous support requirements, basically painting itself into a corner through upkeep on 10,000 infantry scouts.

Frankly, I think the lack of efficiency penalties for Yang's planned police state are GROSSLY overpowered. Were I to rewrite the game, I'd merely halve the penalty for them, so they could run planned police at only -2 efficency instead of -4.

Frankychan · April 9, 2003, 01:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
Yang rules

The Hive seems to be the only faction i can truely play since i like my strategy based around a large army,high industry and growth. Played 2 ip games against pirates now, in first game i'm the strength of 2nd and 3rd place players put together with a pop almost 3 times that of 2nd place (monsoon with +3 growth, how great is that ...

) and in the 2nd game i've killed 1 AI, and 2 others have payed me off ... until my fleet has crossed my empire

these fights were early on so hurt growth aswell but still managed to keep a clear lead in power charts and obtaining all important SP's. Currently in a pbem as Yang aswell, power charts say I'm the leader, but i think its mainly due to population since i'd say i'm around 2/3 outta 5 ... whole area is dry and not much land

going to hopefully make some once i have the WP
A note about the AI, excluding monsoon interferance Yang will nearly always emerge as the dominant leader if there are some other AI near him as the large standing army and high industry enables him to simply overwhelm AI builder factions.

Suffering Inefficiency with Yang ? no negatives apply to him. You mean the drone limits for number of bases ? 1-1-1-police are your answer. Why is it deidre always starts next to Yang aswell ? I'm always at war with her within 50years thanks to planned

*awaits Frankychan and co.

Well, I agree with Lazerus. Yang seems to be the only true faction that agree's with my personality and gaming habits. I usually do the "horde" advance and what-not and I just think he's coool.

One of the best games I've played as Yang was probably the bloodiest.

Every faction survived to 2400 and only had 'minor' skirmishes. I was on a large continent with Zak. Santiago and Lal were on the middle continent w/Uranium Flats. Miriam and Morgan were on the other side of Planet alongside Deidre. (Up until 2400, there was no Council).

Anyway, I subdued Zak into becoming my researcher and decided to cause some trouble. I made a foil and cruised the ocean's encountering all the factions. Lal approached me first and asked me to attack Santiago in exchange for 300 credits. I obliged and almost eradicated her until she escaped to the continent with Miriam. Lal then pronounced Vendetta on me and I summarily crushed the Peacekeepers.

My launch on the "Main Continent" as I called it was half-hearted as Morgan, Miriam, Dee, and a revived Santiago made it an almost impenetrable fortress. I said ***-it and waited until I had Singularity and Aircraft-carrier capability. I made 6 "nuke subs" filled to the brim with SINGULARITY planetbusters

Well, I surrounded the continent and needless to say that after the Hive's attack, there wasn't any continent left.

Muwahahaha!

(wow, looong-a** post)

Alinestra Covelia · April 9, 2003, 01:38

Quote:

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
AI Yang is always strong because the AI is horrible at running builder factions, often running itself out of minerals through outrageous support requirements, basically painting itself into a corner through upkeep on 10,000 infantry scouts.

Frankly, I think the lack of efficiency penalties for Yang's planned police state are GROSSLY overpowered. Were I to rewrite the game, I'd merely halve the penalty for them, so they could run planned police at only -2 efficency instead of -4.

The SNAC variant of the Hive is intriguing.

ShiNing decided to remove the Hive's industry bonus altogether, and as you suggested, made the Hive at half-penalty to EFFIC instead of immune.

However, he gave the Hive a +2 to growth instead of a +1. The importance of this is obvious - all Yang needs to Pop Boom is to run Police Stated/Planned and then build Creches. Instant, permanent, pop boom.

That was quite scary to play against.

CEO Aaron · April 9, 2003, 03:57

I think I over-reacted in my last post. Yang is a good, solid faction, and while I think it has the tools to do well in most every game, if you get energy starved early (no energy specials, monoliths, rivers, etc), you can really stagnate waiting for early techsl.

As for a Yang with no Industry and 2 growth... SCARY. What frightens me about it most is how quickly you can get Planetary Networks and make the switch to planned. Mind you, without drone-quelling techs, your additional citizenry will all have to be doctors, but still, being able to pop-boom after researching a mere 2 techs is pretty unbalancing, to my mind. Add in the extra police rating, and, well, I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that your faction is going to get very large and very scary in a hurry.

waab · April 9, 2003, 06:55

Actuly is there no one that has tried to be a builder plaining Yang?

I like to use Yang as a builder faction, you will not buy so many buildings more use the + 2 in industry, mayby + 3 with wealth, + 5 with eudmanic (sp?).

Actully pretty nice...the only problem is that all other fractions starts fighting with me. Morgan and Deidra beacuse of planned, Lai and Miriam because of police state. Left is Santiago and Zakarov...and it doesn't matter what I do Santiago always demand hugh amount of gifts...So I end playing police/planned/knowledge and killing of one AI after the other...

Alinestra Covelia · April 9, 2003, 08:22

I frequently play builder Yang. The Hive in the early stages of the game has a good defense against most forms of infantry attack, and as such can basically sit back and build without too much fear of being overrun. The fact that you have a perimeter defense in each base, and that your Police rating is usually quite high, means an early edge in stability without having to build any base improvements.

The big problem for Yang comes with his Econ hit. Without other factions to deal with/bully, the Hive can fall behind in a very big way. Industrial Automation does something to overcome this, and once Yang gets crawlers he can usually out build most people, but getting there in a timely fashion is a big problem.

I find that playing Yang, you really need to go out and find people - perhaps just as much as Miriam does.

CEO Aaron · April 9, 2003, 13:54

Builder Yang: run Wealth. At only -1 econ, you're down only 1 energy in your capital square. This still won't let you catch up to Morgan or Zak in terms of tech, but should keep you out of the backseat, tech-wise. Between the +3 industry and being able to skip building hologram theatres (police effect), you should have little trouble keeping up with the traditional builder factions. Liberal use of probes will get you on par, then once you've pod-boomed yourself up a bit, you can begin using specialists to crank up your research rate.

Flare · April 10, 2003, 13:00

~Grin~ Right now I am playing a builder Yang out of sheer neccesity. I am on the penisula below the monsoon jungle and no one is on this continent. ~sigh~ No one to bully or steal from. I have beaten the AI out of the ME, WP, HGP, CN, & PTS. However, Lai is about to finish the EG & has the VW. ~grumble, snarl~ I missed the last by 4 turns! I have been enjoying not having the tech lead for once. Also turned on Ironman to stop my restarting & am one step below Trancend. Interesting game with the Planet being my worst enemy. My next goal is to research & then get the Planetary Datalinks so that I do not fall too far behind in the tech race. I am also sending out the probe foils to meet & greet the world! Police state is a God send without the VW. So is the WP. I have my planned out site for my energy park and am sending the formers that way. Also, I am getting hit by the base limitations on the drones. ~Grimace~ I need Nonlethal Methods BAD!

Thank you all for your input & helping me decide to try Yang again & at these settings! Yer enjoyable game.

Kevin

Jac de Molay · April 10, 2003, 13:11

After getting pushed around too much playing as other factions, I feel truly at home playing yang. Command Nexus and free P.D is

I've haven't had too many problems with tech lagging because Im usually cranking out tons of foil/cruiser probes. I've learned to have a healthy respect for the PTS as well, especially since I never built it playing as other factions.

CEO Aaron · April 10, 2003, 14:51

Were I you, Flare, I wouldn't bother with an energy park, your economy hit makes the returns marginal at best. In my opinion, you're better off filling all available real-estate with bases, and using PTS to pod-boom them to sizable population. With PTS taking care of your population growth, there's no reason not to run Green/Police/Wealth. Your tech rate will be comparable to what you'd get with an energy park, and your industrial might would be MUCH higher. Should you get so big that +2 efficiency isn't cutting it, you can always switch to knowledge, and put a couple of bases on stockpile energy orders, especially if you've bought the PEG.

The bottom line is that with Yang's bad economy, harvesting energy from the terrain is a break-even proposition at best. Specialists are a much more effective way for you to close the tech gap.

Flare · April 10, 2003, 16:03

~WEG~ Well said CEO Aaron! I think I will do just that! ~Evil laughter~ And the world will be MINE! All mine! ~people come to take me away to the funny farm just then~ No, I must conquer the world! ~Screams as I am dragged away~

Mongoose · April 10, 2003, 17:04

Hive does NOT have +2 EFFICIENCY running Police/Green/Wealth. Hive's Immunity effect is applied to the SUM of SE effects, not to individual lines. The above SE configuration yields a 0 EFFICIENCY rating for Yang, just as it does for any other faction without an inherent EFFICIENCY attribute.

CEO Aaron · April 10, 2003, 17:19

Well, I guess I learned my something new for the day. Thanks, 'goose. Nevertheless, I think Yang is better served by ICS than by an energy park. If you can do both, of course....

Lazerus · April 10, 2003, 18:10

I'm still stuck between organising my gameplay around either packing Hive bases extra tight for that increase in security or having them slightly spaced for each base to get a bigger industry ... choices choices

I agree with the energy park not being best choice for Yang. Have tried it numerous times and while it does seem fun to see a Hive base producing so much it always seems better to just behave as a swarm, making up for the lack of 1 super base by having 10 ordinary bases, besides your industry is far greater in this case and all your eggs aint in 1 basket ... mmm easter soon

Alinestra Covelia · April 10, 2003, 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Green/Police/Wealth.

Why Green? Doesn't that take away your growth bonus?

I always go Police/Planned/Wealth - this enhances the Hive's natural Growth and Industry to a formidable +3 Growth, +3 Industry and minimizes the Econ hit somewhat.

CEO Aaron · April 11, 2003, 03:14

Well, as Mongoose pointed out, there's no reason for Yang to run Green, as his efficiency is zeroed after the effects of police and planned, so basically forget everything I said... except that Yang's best way of getting tech is specialists, since they're unaffected by his economy rating.

waab · April 11, 2003, 03:24

I must agree with Alinestra Covelia go Police/planned/wealth(mayby knowledge)

Sure Hives econ is worthless but you do not need to build recration commons and other buildings to keep your population in check. So that money you saw you can buy tech of other and so one.

Somebody pointed out that you need to find other player early, I will agree but only because I always end up around some other factions, I don't know how it is to not find any other player

If you like to play long games (like me) go with eudaimonic, and you will have really fun...

Qualicide · April 11, 2003, 19:15

Personally I think the drones can out produce the hive.

Lazerus · April 12, 2003, 11:06

Well obviously they have a higher industry rating

early game advantage though is that the Hive can quickly terraform land and have a decent defense with its support bonus + the Hive can survive alone whereas the Drones need somebody to trade/steal techs from.

Qualicide · April 12, 2003, 17:19

The drones have good reserch, not hive. Just put on free market.

Lazerus · April 12, 2003, 18:11

I'm not exactly an experienced Drone player but even running FM they wouldnt beat the Hive by much if at all for research would they ? They'd be needing to make plenty more energy then the Hive to cover their -2 research bonus and the fact they'd lose their industry advantage over the Hive would mean infrastructure wise the Hive would be ahead (more formers easily supported so better gathering from land) and they'd most likely be running planned so a higher growth with excess pop switched to specialists ?
I'm due to try out a game as the Drones soon so we'll see then, I prefer the high industry over economy civs.

CEO Aaron · April 12, 2003, 18:34

Sadly, Lazerus, they _can_ out research the Hive while running Free Market. A small example: each faction has a size 3 base, farming from 3 tree squares. Including the base square, Yang running planned police wealth will get 5 energy, 6 if he's got RTanks. The Domai base will have 10 energy, 11 with Tanks. Even after paying off the 20% reduction in research, his base is socking away 4 energy, minimum, to your 3, maximum, toward labs. Having network nodes only exaggerates this difference, 6 labs to 4.

Now, FM has plenty of drawbacks to counteract the huge advantage that the extra economy offers. Worms are going to be a hassle wherever they show up, because your attempts to kill them and cash in the minerals are going to be a coin-toss at best, and of course any protracted military operations in enemy territory are going to wreak havok with your bases in terms of drone riots.

Yang, on the other hand, can field a large former force and still have a respectable exploratory force in the field, working on harvesting Unity pods to close the technology and energy gap. Killing worms, popping pods and cashing in artifacts are free tech, that by and large, your free marketeer will rarely see.

Lazerus · April 13, 2003, 07:57

In an MP game I'm currently playing I'm the Hive while the Drones are my ally. We're equal on techs and power but his tech cost is 3 times that of myself, so I'm researching faster

Granted I don't think he is running FM, but in these early stages of the game I don't think +1 energy per square is going to increase his production that much

Also wouldn't Drones only be 10 with Rtanks ?

I tend to steer clear of playing the game as a maths project and just enjoy watching the minerals make planet scream then go out killing stuff

CEO Aaron · April 13, 2003, 16:19

Remember that every level of economy you gain above 0 increases the energy production in your base square by one as well, in addition to any other stated effects. That's where Domai is getting the extra energy you can't account for.

As for your real-world example, I don't know what your relative level of infrastructure development is, nor the relative number of your bases, nor what your terraforming model may be, so it's very hard to derive any conclusions from it. I think the powergraph is very skewed, since it takes into account some very ephemeral values, such as current stockpile of EC's and known techs.

I don't typically approach the game as a mathematical exercise either, but I needed a small example to illustrate what an extra energy per worked square can do for you, even in a small scale.

Frankychan · April 13, 2003, 19:21

Hmmm......to address the Social Engineering comments...

Does running Wealth have greater benefits than running Knowledge?

I tend to have Police State/Planned (Growth when mindworm attacks become unbearable)/Knowledge. Usually I'm allied with Zak and running Knowledge just cements our pact. When I choose Wealth, everyone seems to pick on me up to the point where I have to switch.

I know Knowledge does have the probe problem, but that's why I usually beeline research to the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm SP. Is that o.k. or is there an easier way?

Sikander · April 13, 2003, 19:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
.... Granted I don't think he is running FM, but in these early stages of the game I don't think +1 energy per square is going to increase his production that much

Actually the early game is when FM makes a big difference. Consider a forest square, which produces %100 more energy under FM in the early going, or a plain tile, which produces no energy normally, but produces one with FM. This marginal advantage can slip to almost non-existent with heavy terraforming later in the game. For instance the advantage to running FM when the only squares you are working are boreholes isn't worth the effort.