The Court: Who should control North/South Sheepsta

[Drogue]

Here it is. As newly elected Chief Judge, I hereby post the official court thread for the case of who is to have control of the nations of North Sheepsta and South Sheepsta.

This is an official thread, please only post when invited. If you wish to post, and have not been invited, please PM myself

The 2 parties in this case are Sheep and Archaic, representing New Sheepsta and Alecrast respectively.

To those that do not know the history, in brief, North and South Sheepsta were stared by Sheep, yet, due to illness, he was unable to look after them, was idle for a period of over 21 days, and thus Archaic too over. Sheep says that North and South Sheepsta are his, and that he should be given them back, Archaic says that he lost the right to them by being idle, and that they are rightfully under his control. They are settled only by natives currently.

North Sheepsta is under Alecrast control, and South Sheepsta is under Bulbagarden control. However, since Bulbagarden is not under the jurisdiction of this court, it is not bound by the decision. Thus that is a matter for the court to decide, if Bulbagarden can be allowed to have control, even being a non-Apolytonian.

Would all Judges available to hear this, please PM me as such, and would Archaic and Sheep please write in if there are any Judges which they will not accept to hear this, and write in if they accept to be bound by the courts decision. If yes, then please abide by it, if not, then this will give justification for nations to act as given by the verdict.

Thank you. Let the case begin. Please remember this is a mediation court, therefore there is no plaintiff/defendant as such. All parties are equal, and there is no burden of proof, merely that Judges should decide, based on what is presented in front of them in this court, who has the better case, and judge accordingly.

[Archaic]

Alecrast accepts to be bound by the courts decision. Furthermore, recognising that the Protectorate of South Sheepsta is part of the Apolyton region and under the juristiction of the Apolyton court, Bulbagarden also wishes to make known that it will consider itself bound by the decision of the court as well.

However, first, we would like to make a few small clarifications to what is posted above. We have of course refained from putting our arguements into these clarifications. Those will come once New Sheepsta has ratified that they will be bound by the decision of the courts as well.

Sheepsta wea stared by Sheep, yet, apparently due to illness, he was unable to look after them, was idle for a period of over 21 days, and Nationstates deleted his account. Archaic took over in RP terms after waiting 7 days to see if Sheep would return, posting up on the 8th of March, with the formal splitting of Sheepsta into North and South Sheepsta in RP terms happening after Sheep had returned on the 13th of March. Sheep says that North and South Sheepsta are his, and that he should be given them back, Archaic says that he lost the right to them by being idle, and that they are rightfully under his control. They are settled only by natives currently.

[Sheep]

New Sheepsta would like to announce that it would like to have a council. Jack_www of the United States of Jackson is to be recognised as New Sheepsta's attorney and is allowed to post in New Sheepsta's name.

[Sheep]

New Sheepsta in the first point of buisness agrees with the Alecrastian amendmants, as truth. New Sheepsta however does not say North and South Sheepsta are ours. We sayall of Sheepsta is ours. Sheepsta is not to be divided. It is to be reunified, such as majortiy if not all of the natives yearn for, to be reunited with family and friends on the other side of the borders.

New Sheepsta also announces that it will not support any judging nation that currently has troops in Sheepsta. Therfore, Centralis and Alecrast are ruled out.

[DarkCloud]

Thank you. Let the case begin. Please remember this is a mediation court, therefore there is no plaintiff/defendant as such

Just a note, sheep


---
Iguana Fire's Foreign Minister has dispatched a team to see to it that New Sheepsta receives correct legal rulings, and remarks that it will back New Sheepsta as much as possible, since Iguana Fire finds Centralis and Alecrast to be in the wrong on this issue.

[Sheep]

Iguana Fire is most welcome to join NEw Sheepsta's team of lawyers. contact me at liammaddrell@hotmail.com or on MSN at that address or on AIM at sheepmaddrell

[Archaic]

Well, if New Sheepsta is doing it, so shall we. With the permission of the court and of these nations, Alecrast, Bulbagarden, and the Parliments of the Protectorates of North and South Sheepsta ask that Centralis, Karakas and Dakmoristan be recognised as our Legal Council.

[Sheep]

New Sheepsta does not recognise the governments of North and South Sheepsta as existing, only Sheepsta as a whole, and asks that they do not participate.

[Jack_www]

Hello Chief Judge of the Apolyton Court and associate judges of the court. First I would like to point out that on one is required to follow the ruling of this court, and as you your self Drogue, the Chief Justice, has said as much. After clearing up this point I would like to start my opening arguments on behalf of the nation of New Sheepsta.

The Nation of Alecrast major claims for South and North Sheepsta are that my client was inactive at the time and that he had given him advance warning that he was taking over Sheepsta. Well Alecrast has failed to hear the other side and has ignore the facts in this case and is wrong in all respects. The first week of my client’s inactivity he was unable to even go to a computer let alone go online to check his nation on nationstates. He was in the hospital at the time. The following three weeks after this he was only able to go online for a period of 15 to 30 minutes a day because of his medical condition. He had only enough time to check Apolyton and CFC for the NES he was in and thought that nationstates was down or too slow to waste his time checking it when he had so little time and was sick. By the time he had the time to check, Alecrast and their allies had already taken over North and South Sheepsta and my client had no time to prevent this from happening.

Also the second point I would like to make hear is that Alecrast and their allies had no right to move into Sheepsta and take it over. The first time that the OSDN came in and use military force to back up the USS and free Sheepsta, the government had requested this and at that time Sheepsta had WMD. Thus all of apolyton acted to free Sheepsta, stop the rebels from using the WMD and destroyed them. After this USS was set up as the lawful government of Sheepsta and were allies with the OSDN. When USS fell, instead of coming before the Apolyton and asking for help, they acted on their own, did not even give anyone advance enough warning and took sheepsta over for themselves.
No international body ever gave them the right to do this and the people of sheepsta did not request it either. Thus they had no right to move in and take sheepsta.

This ends our opening arguments. Next we will present the evidence that back up these points.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Sheep
New Sheepsta does not recognise the governments of North and South Sheepsta as existing, only Sheepsta as a whole, and asks that they do not participate.

That you do not recognise their existance does not invalidate the fact that they do exist. Why do you want to stop the people of the protectorates from voicing their opinions? You do not speak for all of Sheepsta, as much as you might wish and claim you do.

Alecrast, Bulbagarden and the Protectorate States of North and South Sheepsta will present their opening arguements after conference with our legal council.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
Alecrast accepts to be bound by the courts decision. Furthermore, recognising that the Protectorate of South Sheepsta is part of the Apolyton region and under the juristiction of the Apolyton court, Bulbagarden also wishes to make known that it will consider itself bound by the decision of the court as well.

So accepted. However, if Alecrast/Bulbagarden are to win, there will still be the issue of a non-Apolyton country having control of one that is in Apolyton. We thank you for this.

Originally posted by Archaic
Sheepsta wea stared by Sheep, yet, apparently due to illness, he was unable to look after them, was idle for a period of over 21 days, and Nationstates deleted his account. Archaic took over in RP terms after waiting 7 days to see if Sheep would return, posting up on the 8th of March, with the formal splitting of Sheepsta into North and South Sheepsta in RP terms happening after Sheep had returned on the 13th of March. Sheep says that North and South Sheepsta are his, and that he should be given them back, Archaic says that he lost the right to them by being idle, and that they are rightfully under his control. They are settled only by natives currently.

Since that is all factual, I see no problem with it, and therefore the extra details will be added.

Originally posted by Sheep
New Sheepsta would like to announce that it would like to have a council. Jack_www of the United States of Jackson is to be recognised as New Sheepsta's attorney and is allowed to post in New Sheepsta's name.

That is prefectly fine. However please be aware that since this is mediation between two parties (Alecrast and Bulbagarden have the same position, and thus count as one) there can only be one person posting on behalf of either party. Thus if Sheep would like Jack_www to be his council, nobody else, including himself, can be his attorney. Likewise to Archaic. You may have other peopel advising you, but they may not post as attornys.

Originally posted by Sheep
Therfore, Centralis and Alecrast are ruled out.

So stricken. Judge's who may hear this cas are therefore Drogue of Akiria, red_jon of Redfern, Giovanni Wine of Wine and Slowwhand of North Texas. They have all been PMed to see who can hear it.

DarkCloud: Please read the first thread, and post only when invited. Thank you.

Originally posted by Sheep
New Sheepsta does not recognise the governments of North and South Sheepsta as existing, only Sheepsta as a whole, and asks that they do not participate.

However, at the moment, they do exist, as seperate countries. We realise your wish is unification, and that will be the outcome if you win, however we must rule that at the moment they are seperate, and may be refered to as such, even though in this trial, they speak as one. Moreover, this case is not against North or South Sheepsta, but between New Sheepsta and Alecrast. If you wish, they can just be refered to as 'the disputed terratories'.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Hello Chief Judge of the Apolyton Court and associate judges of the court. First I would like to point out that on one is required to follow the ruling of this court, and as you your self Drogue, the Chief Justice, has said as much.

In that case, I take it that your client has not agreed to be bound by the decision of the Judges? In that case, neither is Alecrast. The verdict of this court will, however, give legitimacy to the nation we deem is in the right.

Originally posted by Archaic
You do not speak for all of Sheepsta, as much as you might wish and claim you do.

No, he does not, He speaks for New Sheepsta. But then, neither does yourself. The Disputer Terratories do not take part in this court, unless called as witnesses. This case is between Alecrast (and Bulbagarden) and New Sheepsta.

Archaic, feel free to reply as soon as you wish. Please use one post, and then Jack_www may use one post to reply and post it's next evidence. We will alternate like that, and if anyone else wishes to post, please PM myself, with what you wish to say. Judges, once you have PMed me to say if you wish to serve, feel free to make points as and when you see fit.

Thank you.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
So accepted. However, if Alecrast/Bulbagarden are to win, there will still tbe the issue of a non-Apolyton country having control of one that is in Apolyton. We thank you for this.

We acknowledge this, and both Alecrast and Bulbagarden pledge to accept the ruling of the court on that issue when it is reached.

Originally posted by Drogue
That is prefectly fine. However please be aware that since this is mediation between two parties (Alecrast and Bulbagarden have the same position, and thus count as one) there can only be one person posting on behalf of either party. Thus if Sheep would like Jack_www to be his council, nobody else, including himself, can be his attorney. Likewise to Archaic. You may have other peopel advising you, but they may not post as attornys.

Understood. Alecrast and Bulbagarden with to advise that Centralis will be acting as our council.

Originally posted by Drogue
No, he does not, He speaks for New Sheepsta. But then, neither does yourself. The Disputer Terratories do not take part in this court, unless called as witnesses. This case is between Alecrast (and Bulbagarden) and New Sheepsta.

Understood.

Originally posted by Drogue
Archaic, feel free to reply as soon as you wish. Please use one post, and then Jack_www may use one post to reply and post it's next evidence. We will alternate like that, and if anyone else wishes to post, please PM myself, with what you wish to say. Judges, once you have PMed me to say if you wish to serve, feel free to make points as and when you see fit.

Thank you.

Our council, GeneralTacticus of Centralis, will make our opening statement shortly.

[GeneralTacticus]

As legal council to the Commonwealth of Alecrast in this case, we have been instructed to deliver the following adress to the Apolyton Court, based upon the framework given to us by Alecrast, which has been amended as we see fit.

Judges of the Apolyton Regional Court, today I come before you on behalf of my client for a two fold purpose.

Firstly, to show that the government of New Sheepsta, by the simple virtue of it not being a legitimate successor - in terms of leadership, law, or governmental structure - to the government of the former United States of Sheepsta, would have no right to rule over the island of Sheepsta even if it could be proven that the Alecrast and Bulbagarden protectorates were not legitimate. If we allowed every group that declared itself to be a governemnt to become one, what we would see would be pure anarchy Anyone could assert their rights over anyone else by declaring themselves to be a government, and the only way to resolve this would be by force. This is a recipe for the simple rule by the strongest.

Secondly, to show that the establishment of the protectorates by Alecrast and Bulbagarden, while both sudden and done without conferance with the other nations of the region outside of this, was both legitimate, and welcomed by the Sheepstan people.

The New Sheepstan Council tells a great sob story about how his client could not administrate his nation, though one must wonder how he could distort a fact that actually would put things in our favour with how he said it, given that Alecrast never did, and certainly never did claim that he did, ever give Sheep advance warning of moving in to begin setting up a new administration in what was once his nation. However, he omits many important facts.

Firstly, there is no convincing arguement for why Sheep could not have opened up a second browser window to log into his nation, given that even when the server was slow, which it was not for the entire time of Sheeps absence, it would not have taken 15-30 minutes to log in even on a 56k connection.

Secondly, there is no reason that if Sheep could make posts on the Diplomacy forum, which he freely admits to doing, that he could not have posted a single topic in Nationstates telling people why he was away, a topic which would've needed to be 2 lines tops.

Finally, there is no reason why if Sheep could make posts on the Diplomacy forum that he could not have sent someone he trusted an email or private message with the password, asking them to login to the nation so that the 21 day limit for nation deletion would not have occured.

Sheep made no attempt to do any of these things, and by this, his actions cannot be called anything but negligent. He has effectivly forfeitted any ownership he had over the nation of Sheepsta just as anyone would if they threw a personal posession into the city dump.

The New Sheepstan Council also makes the claim that Alecrast and Bulbagarden had no right to go into Sheepsta in the first place. He says and I quote "No international body ever gave them the right to do this and the people of sheepsta did not request it either. Thus they had no right to move in and take sheepsta."

This, good people of the court, is a out and out lie. Their states being made into protectorates of Alecrast and Bulbagarden were ratified by the people of Sheepsta in a free and public referendum, whatever New Sheepstas propaganda ministry may claim, and Alecrast has repeatedly stated that it is prepared to hold a second vote under the control of international observers. Indeed, it is New Sheepsta who demands that the people be denied this.

Quite apart from this, New Sheepsta has, in the opinion of Centralis and it's clients, forfeited it's right to be trusted in anything it says, as it has repeatedly made false claims about the behaviour of the Alecrastian troops in Sheepsta (which were shown to be false by the inspecotrs, and troops of the Republic of Centralis, to say nothing of reporters from the international media), and also about the state of affairs in various parts of Sheepsta island, which were directly contradicted by reports from the UN (to which New Sheepsta responded by claiming that the UN was 'run by Alecrast', which, in our opinion, furhter calls into question their willingness to accept negative verdicts from anyone).

Finally, we wish to bring the following facts to the attention of the court. Quotes from the New Sheepstan Leadership.

If all foreing nations withdraw their troops and allow New Sheepsta to reunite and begin governing the nation again we shall have peace. If not a oong gureilla campagin shall ensue.

(In response to a reqest to call off his troops while the court deliberates)

No the glorious men and women of the Sheepstan liberation army while may not be able to beat you in open battle have the support of majority of Sheepsta's civilians and shall continue to work for the unification and liberation of our people. To allow you even the slightest respite would to allow you to dig yourselves in to keep the occuptaion of our homeland going.

And finally:

Sheepsta shall be free again. Although we will send a delegate to the court, we shall remind you that if the finding is unfavourable the true govenement of Sheepsta shall continue the fight.

This is a clear and open admission by the government of New Sheepsta that they do not intend to recognize an unfavourable verdict from this Court, one which they have yet to retract, evne when the implications of this were pointed out to them.

It is the belief of Alecrast, Bulbagarden, and Centralis that, if the court rules against New Sheepsta on any issues, that New Sheepsta will not accept the ruling of the court. As you can see, they refuse to call a cease fire while the court deliberates. Because of this, we ask for a guarantee that Sheepsta will accede to the wishes of the court. Without this, the proceedings become utterly pointless and a mere tool to allow the New Sheepstan leadership to take the rest of Sheepsta by diplomatic subterfuge.

Thank you for your time. We await the response by the New Sheepstan Council.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
It is the belief of Alecrast, Bulbagarden, and Centralis that, if the court rules against New Sheepsta on any issues, that New Sheepsta will not accept the ruling of the court. As you can see, they refuse to call a cease fire while the court deliberates. Because of this, we ask for a guarantee that Sheepsta will accede to the wishes of the court. Without this, the proceedings become utterly pointless and a mere tool to allow the New Sheepstan leadership to take the rest of Sheepsta by diplomatic subterfuge.

That is not true, it will not be pointless. As a mediation court, no party is bound by the decision. However, what it does do, is give legitimacy to the party this court deems to be in the right. This means there will be no sanctions for taking military action to enforce this ruling, and trade sanctions will be legal, if any nation wishes to impose them to enforce this ruling. Indeed, The Commonwealth of Akiria, whom I represent, urges all parties, whether they agree to be bound or not, to honour the decision of this court. If New Sheepsta were to lose, and try to attack The Disputed Terratories, Akiria will defend them. Likewise, if Alecrast were to lose, but refuses to give up, aid, both tangible and monitary, will be sent to help New Sheepsta enforce this ruling.

Thank you Centralis. We hope during your case you provide evidence for the claims you have made.

Would Jack_www for New Sheepsta please respond, and provide evidence for examination. You have one post, then Centralis may reply. I think this has become clear, but just to reitterate. Thank you.

[DarkCloud]

DarkCloud: Please read the first thread, and post only when invited. Thank you.

Thats why I quoted the thing to Sheep!!!!!! I was trying to point out your no plantiff and lawyers ruling! as well as stating my support!

[Jack_www]

The first response I would like to make it towards the claims that my client had the chance to avoid his nation to falling into anarchy. I would think that all would agree that Sheep main concern after his hospitalization was to recover. Sheep after all had to have a tumor removed and had biger things to worry about then his nation at Nationstates. He was not aware of the fact that his nation would be deleted during the time of his recovery, that he still had time to log in at a time when he would have more time to check on his nation.

Also many on Apolyton on those who are in NES and are involved with Nationstates knew that Sheep was sick at this time, and no one ever bothered to pm Sheep and tell him what was going on, or weather he had given up his nation on nationstates. Even the consul of Alecrast, GeneralTacticus knew this. Here is a quote proving the point:

He's been in hospital (with a tumour, IIRC), and I imagine he didn't have time to log in and keep it running.

To the second point of the vote of the Sheepsta people to accept Alecrast rule. THe fact is there is no real way to gage this, since this is rpg mostly with no moderation, accept for this court. The only true way to get any short of back would get backing of etheir Sheep himself or the other nations of Apolyton, or through the Apolyton Court. None of this was ever done. So this point of the election done by Alecrast is totaly bogus and has no merit or weight in considering who rules Sheepsta. Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.

Also many nations early on voiced opposition to this move made by Alecrast, all of which were the Allies of Sheepsta at the time. Here is such voice of opostion made by the Kindom of Wine:

The Kingdom of Wine agrees with the positions of the United States of Jackson and of Iguana Fire, the Free nation of Sheepsta was an ally to the Kingdom, after that we helped the democratic factions take the power against the Catholic Fundamentalists.

We ask for a second election to be held, and internationally monitorized as we believe that the previous one was done too fast, and as we don't believe in those new methods as they are unsafe to a possible attack from hackers.

We also would like to know why did Alecrast invited a nation from outside Apolyton to mess around in our regional affaires, we believe Alecrast should have, before intervening, consulted the Regional court, and should have asked for permission in order to call an external ally to intervene in that matter

(In other words: we want no stinking non-Apolytoners in Apolyton )

Saluti
King Giovanni Bennati da Moncalieri
Prime Minister: GrandDuke Francesco Morelli da Pinerolo

And to this day many nations of Apolyton are opposed to the occupation of Sheepsta by Alecrast and their allies.

[GeneralTacticus]

That is not true, it will not be pointless. As a mediation court, no party is bound by the decision. However, what it does do, is give legitimacy to the party this court deems to be in the right. This means there will be no sanctions for taking military action to enforce this ruling, and trade sanctions will be legal, if any nation wishes to impose them to enforce this ruling. Indeed, The Commonwealth of Akiria, whom I represent, urges all parties, whether they agree to be bound or not, to honour the decision of this court. If New Sheepsta were to lose, and try to attack The Disputed Terratories, Akiria will defend them. Likewise, if Alecrast were to lose, but refuses to give up, aid, both tangible and monitary, will be sent to help New Sheepsta enforce this ruling.

While we accept that you disagree and do not wish to impede the operating of the court, and hence will drop this point from here on, we do still believe that if Sheep is willing to acept only a ruling which supports his own position, then the whole process of 'mediation' becomes a farce.

The first response I would like to make it towards the claims that my client had the chance to avoid his nation to falling into anarchy. I would think that all would agree that Sheep main concern after his hospitalization was to recover. Sheep after all had to have a tumor removed and had biger things to worry about then his nation at Nationstates. He was not aware of the fact that his nation would be deleted during the time of his recovery, that he still had time to log in at a time when he would have more time to check on his nation.

Also many on Apolyton on those who are in NES and are involved with Nationstates knew that Sheep was sick at this time, and no one ever bothered to pm Sheep and tell him what was going on, or weather he had given up his nation on nationstates.

All this is irrelevant. You have still failed to provide any reasonable reason to why Sheep made no attempt to maintain his nation. You offer only the fact that he had been too lazy to read the Nationstates FAQ. We re-iterate, the fact that Sheep was able to post in the NES forum demonstrated that he was easily able to either login to his nation, or make arrangements for it to be taken care of. The fact that he didn't do either of these made it a more than reasonable assumption that he had utterly abandoned his nation to anarchy. Again, we repeat, Sheep being lazy and forgetting to do something doesn't give him the right to reclaim it. That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Even the consul of Alecrast, GeneralTacticus knew this. Here is a quote proving the point:

Not only is this irrelevant, we note that you conveniently omitted the sentence which came before it: "No, he must have just abandoned it." I made this statement in response to a statement by Jack_www that Sheep had deleted his nation, which was incorrect simply because you cannot do so. Moreover, when I made this statement, I was unaware of the state of Sheep's internet access. As it turns out, Sheep had ample time to log in, even if only once to set his nation to vacation mode, which would have meant Sheepsta would not be deleted for another 60 days. Hardly a particularly taxing task, especially given that he seems to have had quite enough time to take part in NESing.

To the second point of the vote of the Sheepsta people to accept Alecrast rule. THe fact is there is no real way to gage this, since this is rpg mostly with no moderation, accept for this court. The only true way to get any short of back would get backing of etheir Sheep himself or the other nations of Apolyton, or through the Apolyton Court. None of this was ever done. So this point of the election done by Alecrast is totaly bogus and has no merit or weight in considering who rules Sheepsta. Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.

You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall). Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.
As for the claim made by Jackson, "Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.", again, this is addressed by the RPG. Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

Also many nations early on voiced opposition to this move made by Alecrast, all of which were the Allies of Sheepsta at the time. Here is such voice of opostion made by the Kindom of Wine:

Voices of opposition which quickly melted away. Indeed, Wine, which is *NOT* a traditional Alecrast ally, has since taken a rather different position, and the issues he raised are of course being addressed to the best of Bulbagarden's abilities (Abilities which are stretched to the limit when they are forced to fund a war as well as welfare one must add).

And to this day many nations of Apolyton are opposed to the occupation of Sheepsta by Alecrast and their allies.

We count 3. Only 2 of which are recognised as legitimate. One of which is you Jackson. And even you have called the actions of Sheepsta "insane". This does not constitute a many. Nor does this make any difference. That nations might not like Alecrast having made North Sheepsta its protectorate (Again, we must point out that these are not occupied territories as New Sheepsta's propaganda ministry is quick to claim) does not make it any less legitimate.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Actually, under British law, that would be the case. As Mother, she would have rights to the child, unless they could prove she was unfit. Whether forgetfullness is enough to claim that, would be disputed.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall).

I hope you intend to offer evidence/quotes etc. for this.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.

How would this work? Could you give us details?

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

Not perminant? Do you intend to give them back? Or to the international community?

Edit: I am sorry if this seems like I am being harshly questioning. That is not the case, I simply saw a couple of points which I would like clarification on. I am not arguing for or against anyone, that is for the opposition council, but I would like to bring things up at times, for a few more details.

Thank you Centralis. Does Jack_www have anything more to add? If so, please do so, and Centralis may respond, and bring his own issues.

[Jack_www]

Yes I would, their are many things that GeneralTacticus has stated that I would like to respond to and also I would like to present my closing arguments once each side has rested their case.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

All this is irrelevant. You have still failed to provide any reasonable reason to why Sheep made no attempt to maintain his nation. You offer only the fact that he had been too lazy to read the Nationstates FAQ. We re-iterate, the fact that Sheep was able to post in the NES forum demonstrated that he was easily able to either login to his nation, or make arrangements for it to be taken care of. The fact that he didn't do either of these made it a more than reasonable assumption that he had utterly abandoned his nation to anarchy. Again, we repeat, Sheep being lazy and forgetting to do something doesn't give him the right to reclaim it. That is like "forgetting" a child by the roadside then expecting Social Services to give it back to you once you start to miss it.

Your Client has claimed to have given Sheep one weeks waring before moving in on Sheepsta, we would like to see the proof that this warning was in fact given. Also no one ever bothered to even pm Sheep about this matter.

Not only is this irrelevant, we note that you conveniently omitted the sentence which came before it: "No, he must have just abandoned it." I made this statement in response to a statement by Jack_www that Sheep had deleted his nation, which was incorrect simply because you cannot do so. Moreover, when I made this statement, I was unaware of the state of Sheep's internet access. As it turns out, Sheep had ample time to log in, even if only once to set his nation to vacation mode, which would have meant Sheepsta would not be deleted for another 60 days. Hardly a particularly taxing task, especially given that he seems to have had quite enough time to take part in NESing.

That is pure speculation on your part thus I omitted it. We are dealing with facts here not the assumptions of others. Assupmtions should hold no weight in this case.

You offer up your own rebuttal here. This is an RPG. Alecrast made the claim that the elections happened. This was then validated by other nations (Both traditional Alecrast allies, and allies of the USS before its fall). Therefore, it happened. We again re-iterate that Alecrast and Bulbagarden both have made the statement that they are willing to re-do the referendums under the supervision of other major nations in the region.
As for the claim made by Jackson, "Who would accept Alecrast to say won the elections when he very well wanted to get the nation of SHeepsta for himself.", again, this is addressed by the RPG. Alecrast and Bulbagarden have already made their intentions clear, and those intentions were certainly not for any sort of permanent occupation. The nations of North and South Sheepsta are Protectorates, which have been given the right to choose their own path if they wish to.

I could also claim that elections were held in Sheepsta and people elected me as their ruler, so what is the point? This is means nothing. North and South Sheepsta are still part of Alecrast and Bulbagarden and their troops are still occupying those lands, there actions speak of their intentions all right,

Voices of opposition which quickly melted away. Indeed, Wine, which is *NOT* a traditional Alecrast ally, has since taken a rather different position, and the issues he raised are of course being addressed to the best of Bulbagarden's abilities (Abilities which are stretched to the limit when they are forced to fund a war as well as welfare one must add).



We count 3. Only 2 of which are recognised as legitimate. One of which is you Jackson. And even you have called the actions of Sheepsta "insane". This does not constitute a many. Nor does this make any difference. That nations might not like Alecrast having made North Sheepsta its protectorate (Again, we must point out that these are not occupied territories as New Sheepsta's propaganda ministry is quick to claim) does not make it any less legitimate.

Wine still opposed the occupation of Sheepsta, this is what we are talking about, not the current war between New SHeepsta and Alecrast.
The nations who spoke out about this were:
Kindom of Wine
United States of Jackson
Upper Riis
Iguana Fire
And of course New Sheepsta.

AS for those supporting your cause you have 2 or 3 nations on your side.

[GeneralTacticus]

Your Client has claimed to have given Sheep one weeks waring before moving in on Sheepsta, we would like to see the proof that this warning was in fact given. Also no one ever bothered to even pm Sheep about this matter.

Nobody has ever claimed that Sheep was given one week's warning. What was said was that Archaic waited one full wek after Sheepsta had been deleted to see if he was coming back before he moved in.

That is pure speculation on your part thus I omitted it. We are dealing with facts here not the assumptions of others. Assupmtions should hold no weight in this case.

You claimed that I had admitted that I knew Sheep was sick, and that he might not have had time to log in to keep his nation running. This also was pure speculation, as I had no idea (and nor to the best of my knowledge, did anyone else except Sheep) of when and for how long Sheep could use the internet.

I could also claim that elections were held in Sheepsta and people elected me as their ruler, so what is the point?

Like everything else, it is RP. If you had wanted to move in, and had a plausible reason why the people would vote for you (in this case, the collapse of the government, and the demonstratable success Alecrast has enjoyed in rebuilding shattered nations), then you could say it happened and it would have happened.

This is means nothing. North and South Sheepsta are still part of Alecrast and Bulbagarden

No they aren't. They are closer to being so than most other nations, but they aren't provinces or colonies. They elect their own governments as well as helping to elect them in Alecrast and Bulbagarden, and they have their own institutions seperate from these two nations.

and their troops are still occupying those lands, there actions speak of their intentions all right,

The troops from Alecrast and Bulbagarden would have been soon withdrawn had it not been for the war. The withdrawal was under way when the New Sheepstan leadership began their offensive, and this is the sole reason why it was reversed.

Wine still opposed the occupation of Sheepsta, this is what we are talking about, not the current war between New SHeepsta and Alecrast.
The nations who spoke out about this were:
Kindom of Wine
United States of Jackson
Upper Riis
Iguana Fire
And of course New Sheepsta.

AS for those supporting your cause you have 2 or 3 nations on your side.

This was an error on our part; we had not accurately counting the numbers of nations opposed as opposed to in favour of our position.

However, this remains irrelevant. The number of nations supporting a particular act does not make it legal or illegal, and in any case, less than one tenth of all the nations in Apolyton have taken a position on this issue. Neither side have any real right to claim that 'many' nations support or oppose this action.

Originally posted by Drogue
Actually, under British law, that would be the case. As Mother, she would have rights to the child, unless they could prove she was unfit. Whether forgetfullness is enough to claim that, would be disputed.

By our statement before, we meant to imply that it would be nothing different from abandoning (ie. "forgetting") the child by the roadside, then wanting the child back when you had second thoughts.

Originally posted by Drogue
I hope you intend to offer evidence/quotes etc. for this.

Of course. They are presented below in order of date. We would like to note here that we are only claiming that the referendum happened, and that is all these quotes are intended to prove. The validity of the referendums is not something we personally question, however to prove to the region that they were without tampering as some have feared at points, we are, as we have stated previous, willing to hold a 2nd referendum with closer international monitoring.

Originally posted by Archaic
the request of the citizens council and following a free referendum on the issue, the Commonwealth of Alecrast has absorbed the northern half of the former Sheepsta nation as a regional protectorate, with the Federation of Bulbagarden taking over administration of the southern regions.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
In case the representative from Iguana Fire has not noticed, the annexation was conducted after the dissolution of the Sheepstan democracy, and was ratified democratically by the Sheepstan people.

Originally posted by Dark Cloud
The Foreign Minister of Iguana Fire wishes for a second, internationally monitored election, having right to believe that the previous election was rigged since it was rushed into the space of a week.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
We ask for a second election to be held, and internationally monitorized as we believe that the previous one was done too fast, and as we don't believe in those new methods as they are unsafe to a possible attack from hackers.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep Until you recongnise this the New Sheepstan government cuts all communicationc to Centralis, and will work for the liberation of Sheepstan lands still under foreign occupation. The truth is this is an illegal occupation and unles the Apolyton community does not put an end to it we shall be forced to act.

The occupation was ratified by the people of Sheepsta, whatever your propaganda ministry may claim, and Alecrast has repeatedly stated that it is prepared to hold a second vote - it is you who demands that the people be denied this.

[quote] Originally posted by Archaic

Originally posted by Sheep
Indeed more evidence of the ALecrastian and Bulbagarden attempts to oppress the rights of the Sheepstan people. All the Centralis people and the other OSDN members can say is lets hold a vote!


More like rid South Sheepsta of people already declared as traitors by the government of the United States of Sheepsta before it dissolved. I don't know how many of those 5 million are actually your followers, and how many are those civilians who you've taken it upon yourselves to take over the rule off illegitimatly, but Bulbagarden is well within the mandate the citizens of Sheepsta gave it when it passed the referendum making it an Alecrast (North) and Bulbagarden (South) protectorate.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
The lies of the USSS grow ever more ridiculous. Not onyl are they guilty of blatant historical fabrication over the issue of the parliament, in whose dissolution Alecrast had no involvement, they are also openly lying about the vote which was held and confirmed by numerous witnesses from the itnernaitonal media and by people who took part. The fact that you didn't like the result is irrelevant to whether it actually took place.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
To: Bulbagarden

The Kingdom of Wine welcomes the Bulbagarden decision of allowing independence to their part of Sheepsta, and we shall accept Bulbagarden "protection" over that part of the island for the time being, as long as, once the nation is ready to have complete independence, Bulbagarden will agree to peacefully withdraw from it.

This has done a lot to restore good relationship between your nation and the Kingdom of Wine

To: New Sheepsta

It is hard for us to believe you are the follower of the free government of the USS, until we will not be able to see some improvements in the way you treat your own citizens, we can not consider you the right government of Sheepsta island

To: Alecrast

We welcome your move as well, you showed a great wisdom in allowing independence to North Sheepsta, we hope that you, as well as Bulbagarden, will also agree in withdrawing from your proctetorate position once the new nation will be able to stand on its own feets.

Saluti
King Giovanni Bennati da Moncalieri
Prime Minister: Grand Duke Francesco Morelli da Pinerolo

Originally posted by Dark Cloud
|TO: BULBAGARDEN|

The grand and glorious holy empire of Iguana Fire supports your withdrawl from sheppsta regions and your willigness to leave troops to preserve the peace. IGuana fire admires your willingness for economic sacrifice

|TO NEW SHEEPSTA|
IGuana fire will be sending a delegation to your nation and wil remain friendly, provided you allow trade to flourish between your nation and ours without tariff barriers... WE respect your soverignity.

|TO ALECRAST|
IGuana fire would like to remind Alecrast that yes, many (At least 5 million) sheepstans did not wish annexation; and hopes that alecrast will direct all future interantional relations to the regional president.

OOC: Sheep why are you even insulted? Your nation ceased to exist THere's no problem here IT's just game-play

Originally posted by Archaic
O.O.C. The state of North and South Sheepsta being regional protectorates of Alecrast and Bulbagarden was how this situation was meant to be from the beginning. I guess I just didn't explain it properly earlier.

To Wine from Bulbagarden & Alecrast:
These were our positions from the very beginning, and you have our guarentee that we shall withdraw once the nations are ready for and wish for independance.

To Iguana Fire from Alecrast:
Yes, we are aware of this fact, however these 5 million were in the minority compared to the overall referendum vote. (And indeed, most of those 5 million were declared traitors to Sheepsta by the previous government for their support of Cardinal Ew, and thus inelligable to vote in the referendum.)

Originally posted by Archaic
Finally, "Ew Bastard" makes his most henious claim, saying "You need only look at the pretense of Alecrast as they stormed unpeacefully the Sheepstan homeland. While they maimed and killed thousands if not millions of Sheepstan civilians. They sought only to annex Sheepsta outright."

This is repeating his false claims from earlier. We came in at the request of the people of Sheepsta, after a referendum by the people which ratified their status as our protectorates. While these elections have since been contested by the region, a second election is being set up by members of observer nations around the region, and we feel confident that they will again vote for us to stay. If they don't....then we'll move out. We are here because we were asked to be here.
As for the claims of maiming and killing, there is only one group of people here who have done that. These paramilitaries. I'm sure we all remember when they slaughtered Alecrast civilians who were taken to Sheepsta after the attacks at the start of the Sheepstan Civil War, not to mention those pictures that we showed you earlier. Independant Inspectors from around the region have already validated this, and have validated these claims of "Ew Bastard" as being patently false. Why he continues to make them is beyond us.
As for the claims we wish to annex Sheepsta, I believe this has already been addressed.

Originally posted by Archaic
Alecrast and Bulbagarden both moved in at the request of the Sheepstan Citizens Council following the dissolution of the Sheepstan Government in the wake of numerous terrorist attacks by the New Sheepstan forces. The status of North and South Sheepsta as protectorates of the two nations was ratified by a general referendum. The results of this referendum have never been invalidated, though some countries have had concerns over the process. Both Alecrast and Bulbagarden have expressed a desire for full compliance with the wishes of the court and the region, and are willing to hold repeat referendums with international minders to again ratify these states being protectorates.

We should be able to get a few more quotes to back up this position if necessary. To re-iterate, the general concencus around the region would seem to be that they happened. If they were valid or not is not a question easily answered, and so both Alecrast and Bulbagarden have made it known repeatedly that they will have a 2nd referendum held, with international monitors.

Originally posted by Drogue
How would this work? Could you give us details?

It's the position of Alecrast and Bulbagarden that the court should probably be the one to decide the best method for these polls, given the dissatisfaction with the previous electronic system employed in the first one by the other nations in the region.

Originally posted by Drogue
Not perminant? Do you intend to give them back? Or to the international community?

It is the wish of both Alecrast and Bulbagarden that both North and South Sheepsta eventually return to total self-governance. If this involves a period of time in which they are under the administration of the court, so be it. However, if by "give them back" you mean give them to Sheep, we have no intention to do any such thing.

Originally posted by Drogue
Edit: I am sorry if this seems like I am being harshly questioning. That is not the case, I simply saw a couple of points which I would like clarification on. I am not arguing for or against anyone, that is for the opposition council, but I would like to bring things up at times, for a few more details.

We have no problem with this. This is, afterall, a complex issue.



Also, one final thing we have to add.

Give me my nation back and consign thos ****ed up nations that you made to piss me off into the pit to be destoyed. Either that or give me those new nations as they are made out of my own nation.

You had no right. I was in an out of hospital. You could of wrote me a PM but made absolutley no effort. I will track you down if I have to. After all you live in the same city. Give me back waht is rightfull mine and I will hold no grudge, if you don;t I will hound you every night I am online until you grow tired and finally leave.

The above was a private message sent to Archaic by Sheep. Practically a death threat as you can see, and over which Sheep should probably have been banned from the forums to begin with.

[Drogue]

Thank you for that GeneralTacticus. I agree, it is obvious that the election happened, however many countries have said they are not sure as to the results, in the sense that they may not have been carried out fairly. Thus a 2nd election seems in order, at some point. But as to the nature of this, it will have to be discussed by the Judges.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
The above was a private message sent to Archaic by Sheep. Practically a death threat as you can see, and over which Sheep should probably have been banned from the forums to begin with.

IIRC PM's are not subject to moderation, nor to banning or not. I accept that what Sheep said was harsh and an overreation, but we must consider extenuating circumstances, and the heat of the moment.

Now to Jack_www's cross and evidence. When a party has finished its case, would it please end its post with "'s case rests". That is when all evidence they wish to produce has been produced, but before closing speeches. After this, the oppositionhas one post to make present any more evidence/arguments (since you can put everything left into one post) before closing speeches. I realise this is a complex issue, but if we could be finishing relatively soon it would be good, as none of us wish to see the dragged on for a long time.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Nobody has ever claimed that Sheep was given one week's warning. What was said was that Archaic waited one full wek after Sheepsta had been deleted to see if he was coming back before he moved in.

Well then how would sheep know that anyone whould take Sheepsta at Apolyton? He did not and had no warning. Usually when someone finds something they have to give notice that they found it so who ever lost it can claim it, and then if no one comes foward the person who found it can keep it. But of course your client never did this.

This was an error on our part; we had not accurately counting the numbers of nations opposed as opposed to in favour of our position.

However, this remains irrelevant. The number of nations supporting a particular act does not make it legal or illegal, and in any case, less than one tenth of all the nations in Apolyton have taken a position on this issue. Neither side have any real right to claim that 'many' nations support or oppose this action.

Well we are showing that many nations of Apolyton were opposed to this move. Without any warning to consultation of the nations of Apolyton you moved in. No one even knew what in the world was going on untill you had taken over completly. The only real way to gage support would be through the nations of Apolyton, since we do not have any means to conduct polls of people of a nation in Nation States. We would like to ask, how in the world could one conduct such a poll, because see that this is impossible. Also all the nations you quoted as accepting this so called election where taking the word of your client, that was the only evidence it happened.

The occupation was ratified by the people of Sheepsta, whatever your propaganda ministry may claim, and Alecrast has repeatedly stated that it is prepared to hold a second vote - it is you who demands that the people be denied this.

Again these polls do not hold any weight in this court case, we ask the Judges of this court to through out this evidence and not use it in considering who should have Sheepsta. We also ask that this pm not be used etheir, and if I am right it is against apolyton rules to post the contents of any pm with out the other person permission. THus we also ask that this evidence be taken out of the record.

Also we will soon be ending our case once the court has spoken on these two issues on the evidence that we brought up.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Jack_www
Again these polls do not hold any weight in this court case, we ask the Judges of this court to through out this evidence and not use it in considering who should have Sheepsta.

Since this court is RP, we will not throw it out, but will accept it, taking into account the fact that many nations have questioned it's validity, as has been posted. It is RP, and will be taken as such. We understand that part of this trial is physical, and concerns the nations, but part is still RP.

Originally posted by Jack_www
We also ask that this pm not be used etheir, and if I am right it is against apolyton rules to post the contents of any pm with out the other person permission. THus we also ask that this evidence be taken out of the record.

So stricken. If I get Mod powers, then I will delete it, but at the moment, consider it stricken from the record. PMs are private, and that privacy must be respected. If it is serious enough for police in RL to get involved, then that is a different issue, but for the purposes of this trial, we cannot accept PMs as evidence. I accept that GT wants to attack Sheep's character, as use that as evidence, but we must also look at the mitigating circumstances, and the fact that Sheep was acting in the heat of the moment, and say that it is not a correct portrayal of Sheep's character, and is private. Hence, it is stricken.

Originally posted by Jack_www
Also we will soon be ending our case once the court has spoken on these two issues on the evidence that we brought up.

Which 2 issues? The one about the PM, and the polls? Well, the polls wil have to be discussed by the judges, and will form part of our verdict, but I cannot rule on here.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Drogue

Since this court is RP, we will not throw it out, but will accept it, taking into account the fact that many nations have questioned it's validity, as has been posted. It is RP, and will be taken as such. We understand that part of this trial is physical, and concerns the nations, but part is still RP.


So stricken. If I get Mod powers, then I will delete it, but at the moment, consider it stricken from the record. PMs are private, and that privacy must be respected. If it is serious enough for police in RL to get involved, then that is a different issue, but for the purposes of this trial, we cannot accept PMs as evidence. I accept that GT wants to attack Sheep's character, as use that as evidence, but we must also look at the mitigating circumstances, and the fact that Sheep was acting in the heat of the moment, and say that it is not a correct portrayal of Sheep's character, and is private. Hence, it is stricken.


Which 2 issues? The one about the PM, and the polls? Well, the polls wil have to be discussed by the judges, and will form part of our verdict, but I cannot rule on here.

Well you havee spoken on these issues. We will now await any further responses from the other side and then soon after rest our case.

[Drogue]

O.K. Thank you. Would GeneralTacticus like to respond?

[GeneralTacticus]

Well then how would sheep know that anyone whould take Sheepsta at Apolyton? He did not and had no warning. Usually when someone finds something they have to give notice that they found it so who ever lost it can claim it, and then if no one comes foward the person who found it can keep it. But of course your client never did this.

Why would Sheep have to be given notice when he clearly abandoned it. The onus was on him to keep proper care of his nation by logging in at least once every 21 days so that it would not be deleted from the system, but he didn't do that. After the nation was deleted, it ceased to be his, and now belonged to the whole region to do with it as they would RP wise. The same would go for every other nation that's been deleted from the region, and there's certainly been many of those.

Well we are showing that many nations of Apolyton were opposed to this move. Without any warning to consultation of the nations of Apolyton you moved in. No one even knew what in the world was going on untill you had taken over completly.

We must repeat, yet again, that this is irrelevant. While other nations might prefer to have been consulted, they were not required to be, and my client chose not to consult them. You may think he should not have, but he was under no obligation to.

Alecrast's case rests.

[Drogue]

Can we have the last post from Jack_www now, and then give us a day or two for judging and I will post the verdict. Thank you for your orderly discussion during this trial. I hope we can come to a good and fair decision.

[Jack_www]

The facts speak of themselves, all of Sheepsta belongs to New Sheepsta. My client was ill and in the hospital, and had no idea anyone would come and take over his nation while he was away. When he found out that Sheepsta was taken over there was nothing that he could do about it. Many here in Nation States knew Sheep was sick, but did not even brothered to ask him if he was still going to keep his nation of Sheepsta.

Alecrast had no legal basis to invade Sheepsta in the first place. Alecrast acted on their own in order so that they could gain more land and set up a government friendly towards them. Many nations opposed the move made by Alecrast and voiced this many times.

Alecrast election they held in Sheepsta is not trusted by anyone accept of course their allies. Many nations have called for a second election, but this was never done. This so called election does not give Alecrast any legal rights over Sheepsta.

In conculsion we hope that this court rules and hands down the right decission. If this action is allowed to stand it will allow other nations to do simmilar occupations after holding riged elections to vote themselves into power. Their fore we urge the court to carefully consider this when making its decession.

We rest our case.

[Drogue]

Thank you for a coherant, thorough, and well argued trial. Verdict will follow as soon as possible, and will be posted here.