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Old April 8, 2003, 21:26   #1
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"They threaten us, saying 'we are with the Americans, you can do nothing to us.'"
This could get interesting, we'll have to see how long it takes to get a functioning civil administration running. Also saw an article in the NYTs along similar lines as the two below with people asking when there'll be police.

Also it isn't heartening that the US doesn't seem to have any agreement worked out with Ayatollah Sistani, if the US doesn't reach some kind of agreement with him things could get unpleasant.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...=1031119383196

Armed gangs in Najaf undermine peace plans
By Charles Clover in Najaf, Iraq
Published: April 8 2003 17:57 | Last Updated: April 8 2003 17:57


The people of Hay al-Ansar, a district on the outskirts of Najaf, were glad to be rid of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party rule when the city was seized by US forces last week.


But they appear to be just as terrified, if not more so, of their new rulers - a little known Iraqi militia backed by the US special forces and headquartered in a compound nearby.

The Iraqi Coalition of National Unity (ICNU), which appeared in the city last week riding on US special forces vehicles, has taken to looting and terrorising the people with impunity, according to most residents.

"They steal and steal" said Abu Zeinab, a man living near the Medresa al Tayif school. . "They threaten us, saying 'we are with the Americans, you can do nothing to us.'"

Sa'ida al-Hamed, another resident, says she has witnessed looting by the ICNU and other armed gangs in the city, which lost its police force when the government fled last week. One man told a US army translator on Monday that he was taken out of his house and beaten by ICNU forces when he refused to give them his car. They took it anyway, he said.

If true, the testimony of residents in Hay al-Ansar reveals a darker side to US policy in Iraq. In their eagerness to hand local administration back to Iraqis, US forces are in danger of losing the peace as rapidly as they have won the war, by handing power back to tyrants.

US special forces said they were looking into the complaints, which had been passed to them by US military sources. They declined, however, to discuss the formation of the group, how its members were chosen, or who they were.

The head of the ICNU, who says he is a former colonel in the Iraqi artillery forces who has been working with the underground opposition since 1996, announced on Tuesday that he was acting mayor of Najaf, and his group has taken over administration of the city. Other Iraqi exiles, brought in by the CIA and US special forces to help assemble a local government over the next few days, say the militia is out of control.

"They are nobody, and nobody has ever heard of them, all they have is US backing," said an Arab journalist traveling with a group of exiles from the US and UK in Najaf.

Abu Zeinab said the ICNU "has no basis in this city, we don't know who they are." He said the residents of Najaf, who are predominantly Shia Muslims, follow only one man, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, who lives in the city.

Ayatollah Sistani has so far refused to meet representatives of US forces, according to associates, and has made no public pronouncements on co-operating with the US military. Associates say he is "waiting for the situation to become clearer".

"We only follow Ayatollah Sistani, and so far he has said nothing," said Abu Zeinab.

Hassan Mussawi, a Shia' Muslim cleric who helps lead the ICNU, said on Tuesday that the reports of looting by his group were untrue and fabricated by religious extremists to discredit his movement.

"There are people with guns stealing things in their neighbourhood, but they think anyone with a gun belongs to our group," he said.

He added that his group was seeking to arrest former Iraqi government officials and "collaborators" with Saddam Hussein's regime throughout the city.

"If they do not resist arrest, we hand them over to the Americans. If they resist then we take measures accordingly."

The allegations against the ICNU threaten to undermine much of the goodwill built up by US forces among the people of Najaf, who still wave and cheer at US troops driving through the city. In an effort to curb the looting, which is rampant in Najaf, US forces have begun to patrol at night. They will not be undertaking specific police functions, according to their commanders, but "if we come upon looting, we will try to control the situation and disperse those doing the looting," said Lt Col Marcus De Oliveira, of the 101st Airborne Division.

The city's political rivalries appear to be affecting humanitarian assistance to the town. US special forces have objected to allowing certain local Shia religious leaders, with ties to Iran, to distribute food aid.

The 16 truckloads of food that recently arrived in the city from the Kuwait Red Crescent Society is being distributed according to a plan drawn up by the Iraqi ministry of commerce for the United Nation's oil-for-food programme.

US forces are also trying to restore running water and power to the city, by bringing in a 2.5 MW generator from Kuwait to restart the city's power plant, which was shut off by Iraqi forces.

Hussein Chilabi, a father of six in Chilabat, on the outskirts of Najaf, said until running water is restored, his family are forced to drink water from canals, which is not healthy. "The children are sick in their stomachs from drinking this water. We need running water more than food - more that anything right now."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...p?story=395411

Baghdad slips into lawlessness as its defences crumble
By Andrew Buncombe in Baghdad
09 April 2003



The road into Baghdad was lined with thousands of people. Some were waving, some were frowning and some appeared unsure whether to wave or frown. Others were too busy looting even to look up.

Baghdad is falling – of that there seems little doubt. Yesterday there was so much American armour pouring though the debris-strewn streets into the south, east and west of the city that it seems now only a matter of days, perhaps even hours, before Allied forces claim they have secured the Iraqi capital. That will be when the real challenge begins.

"I think it's fair to say that we're entering the endgame in regard to Baghdad," said Col John Pomfret, a cigar-chomping US Marines officer with a swagger straight out of Hollywood. "I think we are there. But the question is what do we do? How do we restore order?"

Just as it is clear that Baghdad is slipping out of the control of the Iraqi regime, so is it equally obvious that the outskirts of the city are slipping into lawlessness.

As with other Iraqi cities such as Nasiriyah, where the regime's grip has been broken, the south-east of Baghdad is rife with looters, collecting everything they can from government buildings and stripping vehicles bare, in some cases while they are still smouldering.

Most of the smouldering vehicles that lined the route into the city yesterday were Russian-made Iraqi armour – tanks and armoured vehicles destroyed by the advancing US forces. They lay scattered across the highways, some standing in obviously strategic positions and some in seemingly odd locations, caught and destroyed perhaps as they were retreating from the Allies.

General Jim Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, was astonishingly dismissive of the Iraqi forces. They were cowards, he said, who had hidden behind the skirts of women and children. Most lacked the "manliness" to make a fight of it and had broken all the rules of war. "This was as despicable an enemy as we have ever fought," he said.

Why was it, General Mattis was asked, that given the boasts that the Allies would take Baghdad in seven days that this bunch of despicable cowards had held up the US and British troops for almost three weeks? "I never received orders to take Baghdad in three weeks," he replied.

Whatever the general wanted to claim, it was clear that Iraqi forces had put up something of a fight, and indeed were still fighting last night – at least in the east of the city. The area surrounding the four bridges over the river Diyala has seen particularly fierce fighting in recent days. Two of the bridges visited yesterday by The Independent had been destroyed. The surrounding areas were littered with burnt-out vehicles and damaged buildings and the roads were covered in spent cartridge cases.

On the west side side of the bridge in the Al Kannit district, about two or three miles from the city centre, stood a large surface-to-air missile, its make and model still being investigated by the US forces.

Close by lay the corpses of four Iraqis, three partly covered with blankets and one – that of a small, slightly-built man – lying in a broken heap. He looked like a civilian. "No. Military," Col Pomfret said. "They have been changing in and out of uniform and civilian clothes all the time. He'll have to be buried soon. He was only killed recently – last night."

It was impossible to tell what the others were dressed in without removing the blankets covering their bodies, but one was wearing flip-flops while another had no shoes. They had already attracted swarms of flies.

The Iraqis gathered at the other bridge were very much alive and demanding to know why they were being stopped by the Americans from entering the city, across the bridge which US forces had already partly repaired. It was three days, they said, since they had been able to enter the area and their families were on the other side.

Many of the Iraqis were quick to give the thumbs-up to soldiers they met, chanting that Saddam was bad and that Bush was good. One young man stamped the ground as he shouted the name of the Iraqi leader with derision. Theatrically, he then withdrew a 250-dinar note from his wallet and spat on President Saddam's picture.

What do the Iraqis really think of the arrival of the Americans? General Mattis said he had been delighted to see the crowds of cheering civilians, but then again the people of Cambodia had initially cheered the Khmer Rouge when they rolled into Phnom Penh. Are they really cheering when the troops are not there to watch?

It is the million-dollar question, but the answer is probably unsatisfying. Here, as in the rest of Iraq, some people appear pleased, while others are not. Most hope it will improve their lives. Many are angry that they or their homes have been damaged by Allied bombs. The full picture will probably only become apparent as efforts get under way to rebuild Iraq.

"Saddam is no good. We want freedom," Casir Hassan, a young mechanic, said. A slightly older man, Shaqir Ayyad, a teacher, said: "Short time, America OK. Long time, no."
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Old April 8, 2003, 22:03   #2
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There's good and evil people in all sides.

There's probably a loyal good iraqi republican guard fighting agst us because he has his reasons. There's also proabably some sick **** who joined the marines just so he can bonk some heads. Its not that surprising that evil people will try to take their advantage to abuse it.
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Old April 8, 2003, 22:28   #3
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You do realize Kurdish forces have been looting in the North for days, but no American media has reported it, right?
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Old April 8, 2003, 23:33   #4
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Oh my.......Who would've guessed this.......?

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Old April 8, 2003, 23:48   #5
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Now the real war begins.
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Old April 9, 2003, 00:30   #6
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imo FOX showed footage this morning of a bunch of Iraqi's in Karbala with US flags and pictures of Bush and then songs. How they got them I dont know. But it was live with Rick Leventhal. Wierd
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Old April 9, 2003, 00:33   #7
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Ah, the warlords are popping up already, eh? Not that I didn't guess it.
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Old April 9, 2003, 00:35   #8
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Well, the problem here is that there aren't even warlords. The whole point of having a totalitarian state is to kill of any kind of alternative or intermediary between the state and the people, which leaves very little when the state gets killed off.
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Old April 9, 2003, 01:00   #9
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The ICNU dude looks a bit like a warlord.

The thing is warlords will start forming when a totalitarian government collapes, as the former military types will just grab land and exert influence.
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Old April 9, 2003, 03:51   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Victor Galis
You do realize Kurdish forces have been looting in the North for days, but no American media has reported it, right?
I have seen several stories from several sources about this, including American sources. But if this interferes with your rant please ignore it.
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Old April 9, 2003, 04:00   #11
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The wonders of 'Liberation'...

Destroy the system of government, and this is the result.

Warlord bullying and anarchy...
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Old April 10, 2003, 11:42   #12
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When it turns out we haven't really liberated anyone AND haven't found anywhere near the amount of WMD we were told there was, then what will the spin say this war was for?
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Old April 10, 2003, 11:45   #13
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well, if that come to pass, this was a war for a theory, a theory of how the US should use its power to shape the world according to its rules and wishes, as oposed to letting the wrold spin on its own with the uS dealing with what comes.

The Bushies think they can control how the world works since they are so powerful. This for them is just the beginning.
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Old April 10, 2003, 11:52   #14
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well, if that come to pass, this was a war for a theory, a
The Bushies think they can control how the world works since they are so powerful. This for them is just the beginning.
Yeah but they used 5 carrier battle groups and more than half of land troops against a puny country known as Iraq, which got all beat up from 12 years of embargo. How can they attack DPRK?
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Old April 10, 2003, 11:54   #15
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From all the rumblings from the peanut gallery, they will stick with a Middle eastern theme for a while.
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Old April 10, 2003, 12:29   #16
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Quote:
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You do realize Kurdish forces have been looting in the North for days, but no American media has reported it, right?
i knew that

and i wouldn't doubt this is them, especially if they say they are with the Americans.

an american would say "I'M AMERICAN, YOU PIG-****ER!!!" and shoot several of them.
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Old April 10, 2003, 13:24   #17
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While I'm often bent to pessimism, I think it is too soon to enter a whine-fest.
These cities have no access to fresh water, grave food shortages, and power vacuum. It is normal for the first few days after a battle. Such a situation exacerbates egoism and simple struggle for survival ; organized thugs aren't always factions belonging to a warlord. This could become really ugly if water and food don't come back quickly, as well as some policing from the USUK troops.

There will be many problems in the political reconstruction of Iraq, because self-centered factions will appear, and resentment against those percieved as Saddam-profiteers will rise. However, we do not witness a political trend of warlordism right now. Simply a climate of violence in a context of shortages.
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Old April 10, 2003, 13:35   #18
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Seeing as how there are weapons freely available in Iraq, and Saddam maintained and nurtured a tribal social structure, I'd say that there is a good chance of warlordism developing.
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Old April 10, 2003, 13:42   #19
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Every exiled Iraqi government organization and opposition group that I've heard of is comprised of self-serving opprotunists that are no better than Saddam. Chalabi is a perfect example. The man the US wants as the interim puppet is wanted in Jordan for bank fraud.

Anarchy is liberation, apparantly.
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Old April 10, 2003, 15:14   #20
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Hey c'mon, where are the flamers to make this thread fun? Its no fun agreeing with everybody.
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Old April 10, 2003, 15:41   #21
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Almost no right-winger has come here, so we have a boring CGN-like thread.
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