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Old April 13, 2003, 13:58   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
For a government playing with the lives of millions, that is unforgivable.
I was under the impression the subject was about the ransacking of a museum, not the overall war. At least that's what I had in mind when referring to governments not always planning ahead for all the possible outcomes of a "successful" war. In this case, the ransacking of a museum.

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Old April 13, 2003, 14:03   #92
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In my opinion, this is nothing compared to the atrocity committed by Taleban in March, 2001.

Nothing.
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Old April 13, 2003, 14:49   #93
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I think you people are forgetting, this wasn't just any museum. Imagine if the main museum in Egypt was sacked, looted, and vandalized. The world's main repository of Egyptology would be lost forever. The Museum of Antiquities is for Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, the Umyyad Dynasty, etc. what the main museum of Egypt is for ancient Egypt . . . at least it was. This isn't some po-dunk little museum. This is the sacking of the Library of Alexandria all over again.

The US promised to protect the historic sites of Iraq and her antiqities. This isn't a tragic loss for the Iraqis. This is a loss for all of us, our children, our grandchildren, and so on. In ten thousand years, they will still be stalking about the destruction of this musuem.

This is far worse than the destruction of the statues at Bamiyan.
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Old April 13, 2003, 14:52   #94
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I agree that it is terrible

but why did they destroy it?

it doesn't make sense, that is not the place I wiykd think to gaurd if I was in the city

I would expect the people to go against other places

many places have looting and rebellions and th elike, and the important museums and stuff do not get looted

why did they loot this one?

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Old April 13, 2003, 14:52   #95
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The oldest known example of writing in the world was stolen.
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Old April 13, 2003, 14:53   #96
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(loot and more importantly smash up)

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Old April 13, 2003, 14:57   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
I agree that it is terrible
This is beyond terrible. It's one of the great crimes of history. Even the Nazis spared Paris.

Quote:
but why did they destroy it?
Too loot the place for stuff to sell. It's worth a lot of money. During the upheaval after the last Gulf War, many priceless antiquities were looted from archeological sites. The best known perserved relief from ancient Sumer was hacked up and looted then. This is unbelievable.

The people of Baghdad have been begging for US troops to take law and order into their hands for days. This is just unbelievable. This administration has made its mark upon history in the worst way possible. This is beyond irresponsible. This is a crime against history.
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:00   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Even the Nazis spared Paris.
They spared it from the Parisians?
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:09   #99
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
They spared it from the Parisians?
The German commander in charge of Paris was ordered to fight to the last man to hold on to the city, knowing that an Allied assault would surely destroy it. Rather than comply with Hitler's orders, the commander contacted the Allies and offered to withdraw from Paris if the Allies didn't attack him while doing so. They agreed, and one of the world's greatest cities was spared destruction.
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:13   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
They spared it from the Parisians?
Was there significant looting in Paris?
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:16   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Was there significant looting in Paris?
I don't know. I was just curious how he could draw a comparison between this situation and the conquering of Paris (what I thought he was refering to with the Nazi comment).
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:20   #102
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I am not aware of lootings in Paris at the liberation. The only dire consequences I know of are the shootings of alledged collaborators, and wome having had sex with Germans being razed.
However, shortly before the liberation, Hitler ordered his commander in Paris to rile the city with explosives, in order to blow every monument up. The commander did not obey to this order.
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:21   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Was there significant looting in Paris?
Nope. Cuz the Allies took over governing the city right away.

In the Pacific, when Japan surrendered, the Allies required the Japanese troops to continue governing the areas they still held until Allied troops could arrive to relieve them and accept their surrender. We knew then that governence was important, not merely victory.

As an aside, in most cases this was done becuase local authorities were closely tied with Communists and the allies didn't want the Japanese surrender to result in Communist revolution across Asia (which did occur in the aftermath of the collapse of Japanese authority in Korea and Vietnam).
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:25   #104
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I don't see how that is relevant to what happened here

I think what happened here is that the US applied a little pressure

but did not expect Iraq to collapse

and so when Iraq did, the US was not ready to begin governance

it does not seem like any crime to me, rather just a most unfortunate admendum to a fortunate occurance

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(The lack of urban fighting was fortunate, the looting was unfortunate but seems to be the result of the lack of urban fighting)
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:29   #105
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Originally posted by Tuomerehu
In my opinion, this is nothing compared to the atrocity committed by Taleban in March, 2001.

Nothing.
For the record, those Bhudda statues had already been heavily damaged by an earlier warlord. The head was and was already gone when the Taleban started on it. Cultural heritage preservation hasn't been high on the priority list after the russians left Afghanistan and tribal warlords decided who controlled what region.
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:33   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Nope. Cuz the Allies took over governing the city right away.

In the Pacific, when Japan surrendered, the Allies required the Japanese troops to continue governing the areas they still held until Allied troops could arrive to relieve them and accept their surrender. We knew then that governence was important, not merely victory.

As an aside, in most cases this was done becuase local authorities were closely tied with Communists and the allies didn't want the Japanese surrender to result in Communist revolution across Asia (which did occur in the aftermath of the collapse of Japanese authority in Korea and Vietnam).
In this case, the IPA stuck around to govern until they could turn over control in an orderly manner.

How does it apply when an entire goverment, from top to bottom, takes its ball and goes home?
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:50   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
In this case, the IPA stuck around to govern until they could turn over control in an orderly manner.

How does it apply when an entire goverment, from top to bottom, takes its ball and goes home?
Of course there are differences. The main differenes were an intact Japanese military structure and US government foresight. Not much we could have done about the first, but the second was completely within our control. When the looting began, the US government said, "Oh, this is no big deal. And we're not here to be police anyway." They were wrong on both counts. When you take over a country, you take over its administration. Given what happened during the last rebellion against Hussein, the US should have been prepared for this.
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Old April 13, 2003, 15:51   #108
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BTW, I'm not saying we alone are too blame. First and formemost, the blame lies upon the Iraqi looters. But authority has a responsibilty to stop crime.
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Old April 13, 2003, 16:49   #109
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I've always been confused by man's obsession with artifacts, relics, and other pieces of the past.

Museums bore the hell out of me, I think it's pretty irrational to be so attached to some objects just because they're famous and/or old.
Now that is the most stupid remark I ever read on these boards. This even surpasses anything Floyd said.

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Old April 13, 2003, 19:54   #110
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Was there significant looting in Paris?
There was when the Nazis took over... but that was by the German government.
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Old April 13, 2003, 20:01   #111
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I've always been confused by man's obsession with artifacts, relics, and other pieces of the past.

Museums bore the hell out of me, I think it's pretty irrational to be so attached to some objects just because they're famous and/or old.


ROTFL...

this is a classic
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Old April 13, 2003, 20:41   #112
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God, when I first heard about the museum I vomitted. Spiritually, I felt like I'd been raped. Violently. To lose SO MUCH of our history on account of PREVENTABLE looting... :weeps silently:

And that poor women giving the aftermath-tour to the journalists?

What enrages me is this b*llsh*t that the coolition didn't/doesn't have enough forces in the city to effectively police it. Of course they didn't/don't, but they had/have more than enough to protect a few vital/significant locations like the various government buildings (that hadn't been turned into smoldering craters), the universities, the hopitals...

...and the museum.

Although to the living, all of the other locations were of greater importance to the imediate needs of Baghdad and Iraq...

...the artifacts themselves have out-lived hundreds of generations of Humans. They represent portions of our collective cultural roots. Many biblical references find their origins in Mesopotamian mythology. The first Book of Law, the basis of ALL written law, was written there. God, I could go on, but...

We understand our present by learning about the past. But to dismiss this as simply "unfortunate" is very telling of how complacent Humanity has become (once again) to the importance of knowing History. Tired cliches aside, we NEED to know the How's and the Why's and the What's and the Who's and the Where's and the When's of the past if we are to make good sense of the Present and Future. How would the American public and the leadership of the US feel if the priceless artifacts that detail the culture of United States were inexplicably destroyed (looting, fire, war, whatever way)? The Liberty Bell, the Smithsonian Museum, old flags, the original drafts of the Declaration of Independance and the United States Constitution, the Statue of Liberty (though, I guess that doesn't count since it's French...funny how most of the anti-French rhetoric conviniently misses that fact). All gone. How much news coverage would their be? How long would the Congressional investigations go on? How wide would the search to recover the surviving artifacts extend? You damn well better believe the Bush Administration would be ALL OVER that sh*t in a split second.

In Baghdad, before ground forces reached the city, before they entered Iraq, even before the bombs fell, the museum tried to prepare for distruction...distruction that never came. No bombs hit the collection, no gun battles erupted within the museum's halls, the war didn't touch so much as a single shard of pottery. The curators knew almost immediatly what would happen instead. They saw the looting begin in the city and they BEGGED for Coolition forces to post a few soldiers as a deterrent to would-be looters. Where the soldiers have been, the looting has not been: the Oil Ministry, the Agricultural Ministry, and the Health (?) Ministry. One US or British soldier would be enough to scare off a dozen looters, five or so might have secured an entire museum. They have tens of thousands of troops in the vicinity of Baghdad, they could have easily secured every hospital, every university, every museum, every government building (not including the police stations).

Nothing will ever convince me they COULD NOT have done anything to prevent this tragedy of historical proportions. Our history books are littered with hundreds of instances of war; this war will be just another war like so many others.

But the loss of SO MANY pieces of antiquity? This event will be reviled and mourned by the acedemia for centuries, just like every instance of grave-robbing, every sacking of ancient cities, every burning/destruction of major cultural site (like the Buddha statues of Afghanistan), and the loss of major libraries built in ancient times (egypt had one, as did Meopotamia).



On a sidenote: Yes, museums can be boring as Hell, but they are the only place where we can see where our civilization comes from. No grainy photograph on a computer screen, no page torn out of a dusty book, no audio tape tour through an empty museum can ever replace what has been lost: parts of OUR identity...

EDIT: I've just finished reading a book on this very subject (cultural loss) and am now writting an essay on it for my 2nd semester World History class. I've altered the wording in the "Sidenote" paragraph to reflect what's going in at the end of that essay.
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Old April 14, 2003, 00:53   #113
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Other than mentioning that people who loot hospitals and museums should suffer strong physical punishment..

...I just hope *someone* with authority/cash manages to eventually buy/rescue at least some of those priceless artifacts now in criminal hands.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:10   #114
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Honestly, I think its sad that it takes the looting of a museum to get so many people upset. People are losing their livlihoods, homes and businesses are being looted and everything else but in the west it takes the destruction of something valuable to US for us to really take notice.

That being said I think the looting of the museum is awful, even though rationally I feel its no worse then any of the other looting going on.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:17   #115
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not our fault, but certainly felt like a good punch to the heart when I heard the news
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:28   #116
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First of all, I was against the war from happening in the first place, so I was already upset. Secondly, like I said, the coolition really doesn't have enough forces to effectively police THE ENTIRE CITY of Baghdad, let alone all of the other large cities in Iraq, while at the same time cleaning up the last of Saddam's forces. The coalition needed to pick a few vital (to the infrastructure of Iraq: utilities, industry, resources) locations to defend. Thirdly, it is worse to loot universities, medical centers, and museums than it is to loot businesses and homes because: A) Universities and other educational institutions are needed in order to introduce Iraqis to proper Democratic principles in an effective manner. If those institutions don't have the supplies they need, they're pointless. B) Hospitals go without saying. C) Museums are what give individual cultures and the whole world it's IDENTITY. Without that, were nothing more than generation after generation after generation of ants living and dying without any purpose, direction, or meaning. D) Material possessions can be reaqquired with time. Stores can be rebuilt. Homes can be reoccupied. Band-aids can be brought in. Books can be printed.

While the shelves of stores, closets of homes, storage rooms of hospitals, and classrooms of schools can all be refilled with the neccessary supplies, the museums won't recover for decades, maybe even centuries.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:40   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by orange
not our fault, but certainly felt like a good punch to the heart when I heard the news
While it may not be anyone else's fault for the looting except the looters, it IS the coalition's fault for LETTING them loot in numerous places that COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE been defended. There is NO acceptable excuse for allowing the looting of the universities, the museums, nor the hopitals. The coalition didn't have the manpower to cover the ENTIRE city of Baghdad, but these are places that could have and should have been protected...

...And they didn't. For this, the blame squarely falls on their shoulders. Most of the looters may never be caught, but this failure to protect the most vital resources mustn't go unpunished. Someone should be held accountable for this.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:43   #118
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Independently of my other reasons for opposing the war I was really angry about this. Surely some knucklehead would have spared a thought for these priceless treasures. They did say that they were at pains to avoid damaging ziggurats and other ancient sites I hope they had a good reason for not protecting this museum.

Most of my work deals with antiquities so I have an idea of how the researchers who've devoted their lives to recovering this portion of our shared past are feeling right about now. Not only that, but Baghdad was once the centre of world learning and a repository of classical texts. Who knows what priceless fragments have been lost. It might seem odd, but in my line of work a single papyrus fragment or rediscovered piece of text can radically change the whole way we think about the ancients and it isn't like there was a whole lot left before this.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:46   #119
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While it may not be anyone else's fault for the looting except the looters, it IS the coalition's fault for LETTING them loot in numerous places that COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE been defended. There is NO acceptable excuse for allowing the looting of the universities, the museums, nor the hopitals. The coalition didn't have the manpower to cover the ENTIRE city of Baghdad, but these are places that could have and should have been protected...

...And they didn't. For this, the blame squarely falls on their shoulders. Most of the looters may never be caught, but this failure to protect the most vital resources mustn't go unpunished. Someone should be held accountable for this.
Agreed. If the US thinks that the Iraqis might get mean, wait until hordes of angry archaeologists and historians come after them.
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Old April 14, 2003, 01:48   #120
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I was against the war too, but I feel the fact that the US doesn't have enough troops to police the city is a serious design flaw in our strategy. People have been saying all along that we needed more troops and we may have rushed ahead too quickly in the hopes of keeping this war palatable to the public. Certainly not enough thought was put into how to administer captured territory beforehand.

Talking about the importance of cultural heritage is admirable but ultimately pointless to the Iraqi living on the edge of poverty who might have lost his livelihood or his most valuable possessions. He will undoubtedly not be thinking of the cutural or spiritual significance of the loss of such priceless artefacts.
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