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Old April 16, 2003, 19:06   #1
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City Council: Most effective use of workers, esp non-industrial
Since we are going to be the Vikings, I thought I would start this up.

There may well be this information out there already, please link to relevent threads, or post the info here.

First of all, if someone has a list of base turn required for a non-industrial worker to improve the various types of land, please post it here or link to it.

We all know the value of stacking worker to speed improvements, however, stacks have a diminishing return in terms of # of turns they take off a job. This situation is more prominent with non-industrial workers.

For example: say a non-industrial worker takes 5 turns to road a hill. A second worker would reduce that to 3 turns, a third to 2 turns, and a fourth would still remain 2 turns. It would take a 5th to make the road in one turn. (this is only an example, real times may vary)

In this case, it would be more of a benefit for the 4th worker to start a different improvement instead.

However, the cases can be more complicated:

A road on plains takes 3 turns for a single worker, 2 turns for 2 workers. However, those same two workers seperate could road two seperate tiles in three turns where it would take them 4 together. There are times when this may be beneficial than the single tile in 2 turns.

For discussion:

What is the most beneficial use of workers and stacks?

When is it better to split a stack?

What are the breaking points for the various improvements? (ie, when do adding more workers stop to reduce # of turns on an improvement?)
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:18   #2
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Mine - 12 turns
Irrigation - 8 turns
Fortress - 16 turns
Road - 6 turns
Railroad - 12 turns
Plant Forest - 18 turns
Clear Forest - 10 turns
Clear Jungle - 16 turns
Clear Pollution - 24 turns
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:23   #3
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skywalker,

roads and mines have different #'s on the different terrains, so does claering pollution and fortresses.

If someone can get me the list Ill make an Excel sheet of them.
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:25   #4
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i'm glad i'm not the PW / DM guy, i usually just build main roads first, and drop a mine or two at key cities early on
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:31   #5
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Unorthodox, the different numbers are I believe just the base time multiplied by the move cost. I couldn't find a "terraform modifier" or some such field in the editor.
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:53   #6
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?

This is odd, then.

Road on a Grassland is 3 turns, mine 6, and irrigate 4...

You have 6, 12, 8 listed...

6 and 12 match up with hills, cant irrigat those, though.

Roading a forest is also 6, clearing 10.

Mountain is 9 to road, 18 to mine.

Fields, flood plains and desert match with Grassland.

Now to figure how stacking works...
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Old April 16, 2003, 19:58   #7
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I think your list is for slaves, double it for normal workers...
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Old April 16, 2003, 20:36   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I think your list is for slaves, double it for normal workers...
those numbers are base., as you asked for.

despotism has +50% worker rate.
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Old April 16, 2003, 21:13   #9
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This is why I made stacks job specific when I was DM, each stack was maximized to complete jobs in one or two turns with no worker contribution overlap.
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Old April 16, 2003, 22:46   #10
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Regarding that list - the values listed in the Editor are all twice what normal workers take, so it probably is the list for slaves.
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Old April 16, 2003, 23:01   #11
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I've always found stacking workers gets things like roads done faster. In that fashion, one tile of usuable road will get done in one turn, rather than waiting a longer amount of time to complete a longer road at once, without the ability to use it partially completed.
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Old April 16, 2003, 23:20   #12
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It depends on when you need certain things to be done. For example, you can go a long time with 1 industrious Worker, simply because it's hard to run out of unworked tiles early on in the game.

It comes down to what you need and when. If you're working unimproved tiles, you need to get tiles cranked out ASAP to avoid losing too much efficiency. If that means stacking Workers, then that's how it has to be.
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Old April 16, 2003, 23:22   #13
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GF, Octavian, I normally agree.

What I am looking for, though is the break points. Times when we don't have enough workers to stack up to a job for it to complete on one turn. Take a Hill, 3 workers will road it in 2-3 turns, but it takes another 3 to make it complete in one turn. If we only have 5 workers, then there is a point where the extra workers in that stack would have NO EFFECT reducing the time. I THINK it would work that the first 3 workers would bring us to a 2 turn completion, but workers 4 and 5 would make no change to that since it would take 6 to complete in one turn and they could be used elsewhere. Ill look into it a bit later. Basically, what is the optimum stack for non-industrial workers, I want to chart each job with how many turns it would for X number of workers.

I don't think we will have the needed numbers to make stacks specifically for mines for some time.
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Old April 16, 2003, 23:44   #14
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If I recall correctly, adding another worker cuts time for completion in half. Yes, there is a point were adding workers provides no immeadiate effect until enough are added to complete it.

To be honest, I've always used the guess-and-check method, just trying to put one, than another, than another and seeing when work'll be done. Then again, that's only effective when you have roads already...

Someone want to ask this in the strategy forum?
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Old April 17, 2003, 01:58   #15
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UnOrthOdOx,

I think you are referring to this chart from E_T. Thanks.
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Old April 17, 2003, 07:48   #16
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Yep, that's what I am looking for.

The other thing that occurred to me last night is when stacking can be detrimental to overall effectiveness. It's obvious when you think of it, I just hadn't put this much focus on workers before...

Let's take a simple road for non-industrious on a plain. You have 2 workers, put both on road. Now, it only takes 3 worker/turns to finish that road, so on turn two, you may as well inerrupt one of those workers to either start a mine or move on to the next project. The road will still be completed in 2 turns, and you will be moving on quicker than leaving the stack together.
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Old April 17, 2003, 10:48   #17
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That chart is very nice. We might want to brush up on worker management and cracker's site over on civ fanatics is a great place to start. His basic recomendation is 2 workers for clearing forests, and 3 for clearing jungle (non industrial) and looking at your chart, I would suggest 2 for mining hills and 3 for mining mountains.

One thing I want to point out about worker teams, while I do use them especially for forest and jungle clearing, is that they are more efficient if a road is already put in place. If you are moving both of them to an unimproved tile, you've wasted a worker turn in movement. Let's take an example of using two workers building 2 roads and 2 mines (on grassland in despotism). Each one working separately, it looks like this:

worker 1: worker movement, road, road, road, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine
worker 2: worker movement, road, road, road, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine

Sum: 10 turns, 2 roads (after 4 turns) 2 mines (after 10 turns).

Now if they're together:

worker 1: worker movement, road, road, mine, mine, mine, worker movement, road, mine, mine, mine
worker 2: worker movement, road, mine, mine, mine, worker movment, road, road, mine, mine, mine

Sum: 11 worker turns, 2 roads (1st after 3, 2nd after 8) , 2 mines (1st after 6, 2nd after 11)

So we essentially lose 2 worker turns per team, but gain 1 road 1 turn early and 1 mine 4 turns early while the 2nd road comes 4 turns later, and the second mine comes 1 turn later.

So what I'm saying is that pre-roading, using teams is a trade-off. You get the first road and first mine earlier, but the second ones come later and you lose worker turns moving the stack to unimproved terrain. In this case the question becomes, it is more important to get that 1 extra trade and 4 extra shields, or will the loss of worker turns end up hurting more than we gain.

And we also need to take into account what the city needs.

I'm not sure which way to jump.

Also wanted to point out a little worker management advantage that T-hawk pointed out in this thread.

By building roads using the "build road to" command (ctrl-r) the road being build will be finished during our turn when all the unit movement orders are completed rather than after the end of the turn. So it would be benefecial for us to always use 'ctrl-r' rather than 'r' even when just roading 1 tile.

But there is a question whether this type of use is an exploit or not.
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Old April 17, 2003, 11:18   #18
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Excellent post. Summed up what I was trying to get at better. Also some great links!

You could also have them road the seperate tiles then help each other on the mines to get the first one up at turn 7, second at 10, but then the first road is not done as fast.

I did not know the road-to order finished it before our turn was over, either.
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Old April 18, 2003, 12:48   #19
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Unorthodox - I got all of those numbers directly from the editor. Maybe it doesn something with them.
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Old April 18, 2003, 13:17   #20
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When considering the movement costs, there are three stages:

1. Desired tiles are unroaded: Usually it's most efficent to have each worker roading a seperate tile. (It costs 1 worker turn for each worker sent into each such tile.)

2. Desired tiles are all railroaded: Usally most efficent to send enough workers to finish the job in 1 turn.

3. Desired tiles are all roaded, but not railroaded: Break points in charts should be followed. Which break point to use depends upon the number of nearby workers within the break points of 2 tiles, 5 tiles, 8 tiles, etc.
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Old April 18, 2003, 21:54   #21
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The only time there is a trade off with stacks is when you are building roads, which is why I tend to use Road stacks for harder terrain types like roads and mountains. And simply use individual workers for the grassland/plains tiles.
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Old April 19, 2003, 19:15   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
The only time there is a trade off with stacks is when you are building roads, which is why I tend to use Road stacks for harder terrain types like roads and mountains. And simply use individual workers for the grassland/plains tiles.
hi ,

, or put two on grass/plains , one for the road , the other for the mine , ...

have a nice day
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Old April 20, 2003, 13:36   #23
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You'd still be wasting a worker turn for the one who mines.
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Old April 20, 2003, 16:13   #24
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For flatland, it's more efficient to use 2 workers in separate tiles than to stack them up

Example:
Non-industrious worker takes 3 turns to road a flatland tile. Also 1 turn to move to that unroaded tile, so 4 turns total. If you use 2 workers, it will take 2 turns to road that same tile, plus the 1 turn to move, so that's 3 turns total.

Over 12 turns:
With 2 workers working separately - 6 tiles are roaded.

With 2 workers working together - 4 tiles are roaded.

You should only double up when roading Hills and Forrest, Mining Flat & Hills, Irrigating Flat and Cutting forrest.

You should try to triple up when roading or clearing Jungle and roading and Mining Mountains.

One thing that I have done in the past is to have the 2 workers both road the separate tiles, then both double up and Improve the already roaded tiles.

Another thing that I also do, is to either mine or irrigate a tile that is next to a river before I road it, as it already has the trade bonus available for use.

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Old April 21, 2003, 08:40   #25
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Quote:
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You'd still be wasting a worker turn for the one who mines.
hi ,

nope , the worker who does the road can move to the next tile and start a road there , ....

have a nice day
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