Homosexuality: Are there any biblical arguements for it?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Inform him that official stance of his own church is that homosexual orientation isn't chosen.

In a statement last week the Pope reiterated the age old position that homosexuality is to be condemned. Of course at the same time he condemened the practice of attending protestant churches.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Frogman


What???? Did you read Gen 19:4-8? Men from Sodom surrounded Lots house and demanded that he send out the men of his house to the them for sex. Lot offered virgin women instead but nope, they wanted the men. You might call that inhospitable where you live, but it seems worse than that to me. Of course we're talking rape here not just sodomy or homosexuality.

The Bible has several references against homosexual practices in the old and new testaments. All I say is that its my job to love people and its God's job to judge them. I'm not going to throw stones and say someone else's sin is worse than mine. Personally though, I think God made some people homosexual and I don't think its a sin, but you can't argue that position from the Bible.

The angels had been sent in the guise of ordinary men to reconnoiter Sodom. Lot had made God promise that if he could find even a few good people in Sodom he would spare the city. God sent two angels to the town, who proceeded to wander around asking questions. Evdiently their questions aroused the anger of the townspeople. A mob gathered at Lot's home and demanded that the two men come forth so that they could teach them a lesson. Evidently it was a practice in this place to punish people by forcible rape. That's not quite the same as typical consensual homosexuality.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
In a statement last week the Pope reiterated the age old position that homosexuality is to be condemned. Of course at the same time he condemened the practice of attending protestant churches.

No, homosexual acts are condemned by the Church, not homosexuality. The position the Church adopted a while ago was that being gay was not a choice, but acting on gay urges was. Gay acts are deemed sinful, but non-active gays are fine.

It's bullshit, considering JC says that even thinking about sins makes one guilty of them...

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


The angels had been sent in the guise of ordinary men to reconnoiter Sodom. Lot had made God promise that if he could find even a few good people in Sodom he would spare the city. God sent two angels to the town, who proceeded to wander around asking questions. Evdidently their questions aroused the anger of the townspeople. A mob gathered at Lot's home and demanded that the two men come forth so that they could teach them a lesson. Evidently it was a practice in this place to punish people by forcible rape. That's not quite the same as typical consensual homosexuality.

Yeah, as I think about it, there must have been something up. This wasn't about homosexuality as you say. I had never heard of men raping men as a punishment though. That seems rather strange, why wouldn't you just hit'em with a stick or something.

Again, trying to understand these people based on our culture today is impossible. Many things they did seem absurd or even repulsive by our standards. Leviticus 18 seems to be a reasonable collection of standards against incest, homosexuality and beastiality but what about Leviticus 20. Should adultery and homosexuality be punishable by death? Its in the Bible but you don't hear people arguing for that. Its just too convenient to pick out what your looking for and avoid the rest.

[DinoDoc]

Boris: If you're going to quote religioustolerance.org, you could at least quote the interesting parts about Same-sex relationships in the Bible.

[Ted Striker]

"Homosexuality is gay."

Epheisans 4:89

[cinch]

In regards to the raping-as-punishment stuff above:

The story of the two angels visitting Lot in Sodom is very, very similar to the story of 'The Levite And His Concubine' (Judges 19:1-30). Either it's the exact same story told in two different ways, or raping was just a common punishment. And, apparently, the common reply to this punishment is to offer up your daughters and/or girlfriends to be raped instead. Hm.

*******************
(After the Levite and his concubine arrive at the home of an old man who has offered them room in his home...)

They were enjoying themselves when all of a sudden some sexual perverts from the town surrounded the house and started beating on the door. They said to the old man, "Bring out that man that came home with you! We want to have sex with him!".
But the old man went outside and said to them, "No, my friends! Please! Don't do such an evil, immoral thing! This man is my guest! Look! Here is his concubine and my own daughter, who is a virgin. I'll bring them out now, and you can have them. Do with them whatever you want. But don't do such an awful thing to this man!". But the men would not listen to him. So the Levite took his concubine and put her outside with them. They raped her and abused her all night, and didn't stop until morning.
At dawn the woman came and fell down at the door of the old man's house, where her husband was. She was still there when daylight came. Her husband got up that morning, and when he opened the door to go on his way, he found his concubine lying in front of the house with her hands reaching for the door. He said, "Get up. Let's go.". But there was no answer. So he put her body across the donkey and started on his way home. When he arrived, he went into the house and got a knife. He took his concubine's body, cut it into twelve pieces, and sent one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. (Judges 19:22-29)
*****************************

[statusperfect]

SODOMY IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN, WORTHY OF DEATH.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Leviticus 18:22.
See also Leviticus 20:13, Genesis 19, Romans 1:18-32, I Corinthians 6:9-11, I Timothy 1:10, and Jude 7.
GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY.
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight, thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5.
See also Leviticus 20:23, Leviticus 26:30, Deuteronomy 32:19, Psalm 5:6, Psalm 11:5, Malachi 1:3, Matthew 7:23, and Romans 9:13.
JESUS CHRIST DIED ONLY FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.
See also John 13:1, John 17:9, Ephesians 5:25, etc.
ONLY GOD'S ELECT HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO BELIEVE.
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." John 12:39,40.
See also John 10:11,26, Matthew 11:25,26, Acts 13:48, Romans 9:19-24, etc.
SODOMITES ARE PROUD OF THEIR SIN ("GAY PRIDE"), AND IN THAT PRIDEFUL STATE THEY CANNOT REPENT - YOU CANNOT REPENT OF SOMETHING YOU'RE PROUD OF.
"Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 6:15.
See also Jeremiah 13:23, Romans 1:24-32, Ezekiel 16:49-50, etc.
THE SODOMITES' ONLY HOPE IS TO HAVE THE UNAMBIGUOUS TRUTH PREACHED TO THEM, AND PERHAPS GOD WILL SOFTEN THEIR HEARTS AND GRANT THEM REPENTANCE TO DEPART FROM THEIR SIN AND NAME THE NAME OF CHRIST. NOT VERY LIKELY, THOUGH, SINCE GOD HAS GIVEN THEM UP.
"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." II Timothy 2:19. "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness...unto vile affections...to a reprobate mind." Romans 1:24-28.
See also II Timothy 2:24-26, Psalm 5:5, I Corinthians 6:9-11, Acts 17:30, Jude 22,23, etc.
THERE IS A HELL WHERE ALL IMPENITENT SINNERS WILL RESIDE FOR ALL ETERNITY. THAT INCLUDES SODOMITES (CALLED "DOGS").
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Isaiah 66:24. "For without are dogs..." Revelation 22:15.
See also Mark 9:44, Luke 16:23, Revelation 20:15.

From www.godhatesfags.com

[red_jon]

www.godlovesfag.com


Oh, and I did find a quote by Jesus (I think it was in Matthew) in which he said everyone must marry before having sex, aside from those who were unable to do so because of the way they were born. Or something. Reference to homosexuality?

[yago]

Obviously, God changed his stance against homosexuality, as the holy spirit has born a gay son.

[Frogman]

Originally posted by cinch
In regards to the raping-as-punishment stuff above:

The story of the two angels visitting Lot in Sodom is very, very similar to the story of 'The Levite And His Concubine' (Judges 19:1-30). Either it's the exact same story told in two different ways, or raping was just a common punishment. And, apparently, the common reply to this punishment is to offer up your daughters and/or girlfriends to be raped instead. Hm.

Very interesting, but I don't see the punishment angle. The guy just showed up in town and was obviously just a visitor looking for a shelter for the night. I don't know what the motivation or how common this dragging visitors out to rape them was, but it sure isn't homosexuality as we know it. It was a crime, and as you read later, it cost the lives of 26,000 Benjamites and 35,000 from the other tribes.

[Bereta_Eder]

God hated gays. He thought they should burn in hell.
Spin it anyway you want, you will just be funny.

Then New Testament came. The new politically correct face of God, for that timeframe.

Didn't know if it had some curses for gays there too.

Still gays are like below 10% of the total population, so who knows, maybe God didn't care about their votes


I don't think that "God" is all or perfectly described in the Holy Scriptures if He exists at all. But if He is, gays go to hell.

[Ben Kenobi]

The position the Church adopted a while ago was that being gay was not a choice, but acting on gay urges was. Gay acts are deemed sinful, but non-active gays are fine.

It's bullshit, considering JC says that even thinking about sins makes one guilty of them...

Boris:

You are right that in terms of the way God sees things, there is no difference between sodomy in your head, and sodomy on your bed.

You are assuming that one cannot overcome these urges, whereas the Catholic church assumes that you can. You are not the sum of these urges, just the same as heterosexuals are not the sum of theirs.

What do you think about this?

Phillipians 4:8

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things."

red_jon:

Oh, and I did find a quote by Jesus (I think it was in Matthew) in which he said everyone must marry before having sex, aside from those who were unable to do so because of the way they were born.

Matthew 19:10-13

The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[3] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Homosexuals are not eunuchs, are they?

[Spiffor]

IIRC, the word "sodomite" womes back many, many times in the Ancient Testament, even when not referring to people from Sodom.
I don't think it is that outstretching to assume "sodomites" are homosexuals, or for the instance any people who are indulging non-reproductive sex.
I don't recall "Sodomites" being painted in a good light at any point of the Bible.

[cinch]

Very interesting, but I don't see the punishment angle. The guy just showed up in town and was obviously just a visitor looking for a shelter for the night. I don't know what the motivation or how common this dragging visitors out to rape them was, but it sure isn't homosexuality as we know it. It was a crime, and as you read later, it cost the lives of 26,000 Benjamites and 35,000 from the other tribes.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that that was representative of modern-day homosexuality. I was just pointing out another instance in the Bible where townspeople wish to rape an out-of-towner.

So... why did they want to rape out-of-towners so much, anyway?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Spiffor
IIRC, the word "sodomite" womes back many, many times in the Ancient Testament, even when not referring to people from Sodom.
I don't think it is that outstretching to assume "sodomites" are homosexuals, or for the instance any people who are indulging non-reproductive sex.
I don't recall "Sodomites" being painted in a good light at any point of the Bible.

good point spiffor. I think the word sodomite is older than greek. dont have a clue about its etymology. might be interesting to know what it meant at that time it was written.

[Ben Kenobi]

Paiktis:

I don't think that "God" is all or perfectly described in the Holy Scriptures if He exists at all. But if He is, gays go to hell.

As will anyone who is unrepentant.

No different for gay people as well as for other people.

Leviticus 18 seems to be a reasonable collection of standards against incest, homosexuality and beastiality but what about Leviticus 20. Should adultery and homosexuality be punishable by death? Its in the Bible but you don't hear people arguing for that. Its just too convenient to pick out what your looking for and avoid the rest.

Frogman:

Excellent point. Why do we think that adultery should not merit a death sentence? What has changed between then and now?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by paiktis22
God hated gays. He thought they should burn in hell.
Spin it anyway you want, you will just be funny.

How about we go with the truth instead of your own preconcieved prejudices?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Paiktis:



As will anyone who is unrepentant.

No different for gay people as well as for other people.

that's ok. if God is to put a man like me in hell, then so be it. he's wrong. I'm not perfect or a saint but I'm not a criminal either. Also if God is to put in hell someone for simply not believing at his existance whereas he hs lived his life humanly then too bad, there will be more revolutions in heavens

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Excellent point. Why do we think that adultery should not merit a death sentence? What has changed between then and now?

We don't need to reproduce so badly, because there is no population shortage right now. So, there is no need to threaten people of a supranatural punishment if they don't behave according to the necessities of reproduction.

[Ben Kenobi]

Dr. Strangelove:

From the NIV

Genesis 19:3-5

But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Nothing about Sodom using rape as punishment.

What version of the bible are you using?

[Ben Kenobi]

That is, "rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur."

Boris:

As always, the passage at hand, from the NIV:

Lev 19:22-23

" 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

" 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion."

None of this sophistry with 'beds' that you seem so inclined to present.

As for your second point, try actually reading the chapter. Versus 6-24 each list violations of the Law with respect to sexual matters. Ït's not just one verse, but many that bear the exact same structure and format for presenting the violations of the Law.

Spiffor

We don't need to reproduce so badly, because there is no population shortage right now. So, there is no need to threaten people of a supranatural punishment if they don't behave according to the necessities of reproduction.

First off, we do have a population shortage in the West, particularly in Europe.

Secondly, it does not follow that population growth is the reason for adultery.

If there was such a lack of people, why would they be willing to kill one in order to prevent adultery? It makes no sense.

[Bereta_Eder]

minor threadjack since Ming closed my thread saying that there are too many trheads about religion, if someone likes to comment please do




what annoys me the most about christianity
For me it's not the do's and onnot, the blah, blah, blahs.

In the end of the day God is about one thing and that is love. And I'm of course alright with that as would be any non psychopathic person.


There's one thing that bothers me though.


The apocalyspe and the end of the world.


Do you mean to say that all that we have achieved, all our struggles and fights and torments for the betternment of us, the human race, will all be in vain?

That someone is going to come from above and say: game over. thanks for playing, now it stops?


That's too damn fatalistic. Unacceptable. Doesn't make sense and it is unfair.


Sincerely hope this is not the case.


I believe eventually the human race will achieve better and better conditions for itself always aiming for the perfect.

To have a God coming down and put an end to all our struggles, annuling all the pains to imrpove what we have started with is what annoys me the most.

[Spiffor]

Obiwan :
Indeed, I was rather oriented towards the punishment of homosexuals and masturbaters. I don't remember male adulterism being that harshly sentenced by the Ancient Testament (however, I remember Onan was highly encouraged to **** his brother's wife).

Another thing that has changed through the ages is the reduced influence of religions in the earthly business. Therefore, rulers are less prone to favor religious punishments to earthly behaviours. That's why illegal abortions or sodomies would rather be punished by fines or imprisonment, rather than by the promise to go to hell.
Add the "disenchantment of the world" (don't know the exact English saying) to the picture, and you have religious punishments that are highly ineffectual in today's western societies.

[Spiffor]

Paiktis :
As I wanted to say in the other thread (but Ming beated me to it )
If you don't believe in religion, or at least in religious lore, it makes you feel much better .

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Paiktis :
As I wanted to say in the other thread (but Ming beated me to it )
If you don't believe in religion, or at least in religious lore, it makes you feel much better .

Actually I think that Christians feel much better They have something to hold on

[Bereta_Eder]

not the fanatics though of course. for them it's either god or drugs

[Ben Kenobi]

Genesis 37:7-8

"But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death.

Then Judah said to Onan, 'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.' "

Spiffor:

Kind of hard to commit adultery with your dead brother's wife.

For the answer to my question I was looking more for a discussion of the limits to civil authority, and the relationship between civil authority and the church. Now these are quite seperate, whereas before, the punishment would be determined by the church.

Paiktis: At least you believe in equal-opportunity.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Kind of hard to commit adultery with your dead brother's wife.

But wasn't Onan married ?

For the answer to my question I was looking more for a discussion of the limits to civil authority, and the relationship between civil authority and the church. Now these are quite seperate, whereas before, the punishment would be determined by the church.

Yes, I think so too. But I also think the Church now has to fear something it never had to fear to the same extent before : the loss of believers. If you scare your believers too much, they'll go see elsewhere or will stop believing in your religion. That is quite a consumerist approach, but I'm sure it's taken into account : you simply can't afford to threaten or torture your believers like in the good old days now.

[Ben Kenobi]

But wasn't Onan married?

Nope.

But I also think the Church now has to fear something it never had to fear to the same extent before : the loss of believers. If you scare your believers too much, they'll go see elsewhere or will stop believing in your religion. That is quite a consumerist approach.

Not really. The reasoning is along these idea that true faith cannot be compelled. If people do not agree with the church, they are free to leave. The church does not operate, (or at least it should not,) along the lines of customer satisfaction.