Cliches in games

Sandman · April 26, 2003, 12:04

Ok, what are the most agonisingly unoriginal features in games? Post them here!

Exploding Barrels.

To me, these just sum up the contrived naffness of supposedly realistic level design. Games designers spinkle them liberally about levels, purely for the purpose of them exploding. It's like the enemy wants to make it easy for you. I can accept exploding barrels in the context of some sort of fuel storage area, where it makes sense for them to be, but when they're lying about in every corridor, every street, everywhere, it destroys any sense of immersion. Only in a game would barrels be so strategically placed, just waiting to be shot.

Culprits: Doom, and almost every FPS since. Red Alert had an insane number of barrels just 'lying about'.

Goblins.

The fantasy genre is composed almost entirely of cliches, however, I'm selecting goblins as a case in point. These guys seem to exist for the sole purpose of you killing them. Invariably weak and stupid, they present no challenge at all, and are no fun to kill. At least other fantasy staples are a challenge to defeat. Give me a game where the goblins are hard as nails, now that would be something.

Jamski · April 26, 2003, 18:37

Characters that go up levels.
Does every RPG have this feature?

Hit points (who invented this rubbish)
You can hit me at least 9 times with your sword, even though I'm unarmoured because I have 97 HPs.

Mana.
Need I say more? Isn't this "food from heaven" anyway?

The bad guys want to take over the world. Ok, this is in films too, but who has the millitary power to take over the world?

That's enough to be getting on with.

-Jam

vovan · April 26, 2003, 20:37

Quote:

Originally posted by War of Art
Mana.

Ooh, ooh, look! There is a lump of mana right in that corner. You can get some good spells with that much!

Seriously, mana gets funny sometimes.

Another thing is: the bad guys always talk too much. This is especially true for movies, but it takes place in games also.

See this link for more cliches about bad guys.

http://minievil.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

Quote:

When I capture my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."

Another thing is, after a fight with the big boss, the building you were fighting in usually collapses, or explodes, or some such thing that could kill the hero after the fight...

Maquiladora · April 26, 2003, 21:01

Going along with the RPG theme (although i dont play any RPGs), from what i can tell there always seems to be a group consisting of small dwarf/elf type thing with an axe bigger than he is and a huge beard, then the tall long haired woman with large breasts, the guy with a big sword huge muscles and no brain, and some other one. This might be adventure/action games too.

Id go along with the "box/crate" thing in FPS's too, half-life and quake being particularly bad offenders. Even if it is to reduce clipping or that thing with the z-axis, theres no excuse for the extreme repitition.

Felch · April 27, 2003, 02:56

The last level, when you should have the enemy near the brink of defeat, after all those heroic successes so far in the game, and for some reason your side can only give you a tooth pick and a disposable poodle to help you take over the ridiculously well defended enemy fortress.

Grumbold · April 27, 2003, 05:42

I remember vividly the PnP module where goblins got their own back. It was so well crafted that a medium levelparty was in serious trouble. The goblins were essentially using guerrilla war tactics. Tunnels. Ambushes. Traps. Suicide bombers. It was excellent fun.

The basic problem with Goblins in RPG's is that you never get to see their strengths. They should stay hidden in their wilderness lairs until breeding pressure and a good leader drives them out on the rampage. Then there is 50 goblins for every defender. Shoot 50 arrows a round at a warrior and even with a stupid armour class he's going to get hit by an average of 2.5 arrows just on natural 20 rolls. Instead you get goblins popping up in small numbers as a light workout for the newbie adventuring party to deal with.

Skanky Burns · April 27, 2003, 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Felch X
The last level, when you should have the enemy near the brink of defeat, after all those heroic successes so far in the game, and for some reason your side can only give you a tooth pick and a disposable poodle to help you take over the ridiculously well defended enemy fortress.

That annoys me too. I'm playing Knights and Merchants at the moment (yes, its and oldie). I'm near the end of the game and have soundly defeated the enemy round after round. Now I attack their fortress guarded by knights and crossbowmen, and I only have a handful of pitiful soldiers to combat them with. Sheesh!

Sandman · April 27, 2003, 08:47

Quote:

Mana.

Physical characters never get tired, even if they're wearing full plate armour and carrying two maces. Magic users, on the other hand, get knackered after just a few spells.

Quote:

Id go along with the "box/crate" thing in FPS's too, half-life and quake being particularly bad offenders. Even if it is to reduce clipping or that thing with the z-axis, theres no excuse for the extreme repitition.

How often, in a FPS, have you come across a pile of crates that just 'happen' to make a nice staircase? The back route into the statue in Deus Ex was an example of this.

And, related to this is the whole block-moving puzzle thing.

DrSpike · April 27, 2003, 09:15

Many of these things are not really cliches; they necessarily exist for gameplay purposes. Sure if I shoot you you should be severely hurt regardless of your hitpoints........but does reality make for a good game? No, it doesn't. The same applies to mana, and several of the other non-cliches mentioned here.

The barrels point I empathise with, since it is overused now. But making a reality based objection to this or similar features is stupid IMO.

The real cliches like the disintegrating house after you win the fight are annoying.......but hopefully the trend in game writing is in the right direction.

Skanky Burns · April 27, 2003, 10:08

Damn you double-post.

Skanky Burns · April 27, 2003, 10:09

I hate stupid AI. I hate games that start you at a massive disadvantage just so there is some challenge in defeating the stupid AI. I hate games that don't give you the necessary information to effectively control your empire (for example, it will tell you that your coal mine is out of coal, but not mention anything about your only group of knights being defeated by the enemy).

SCG · April 27, 2003, 10:16

i agree with dr spike. the concept of hitpoints is one way (maybe not necessarily the best way) to represent learning how to survive an attack - maybe its the last second dodge to cushion the blow or deflect it somehow so it doesn't strike with the same force - yes, you could have weapons do less damage as you get advance in level, but allowing you to take more hits does do a decent job of represening the intent as well. Some games do also allow for the D&D concept of killing 1 held or sleeping creature per round (why only one per round? in D&D, a round represented 1 minute, and was the defined time for the game to kill a sleeping creature without awakening the creatures around it)

D&D also did a decent job of explaining the concept of saving throws in a related and similar concept.

Just curious, for those who complain about increasing HP, do you also get turned off by extra lives? (just another way of representing the same concept of being able to take more damage as you get more experienced)

Also, on the concept of tiredness, Baldur's Gate has the characters needing sleep every 2 game days, and then their ability to respond and fight is reduced, so is being added into those genre of games, without greatly reducing gameplay. And gameplay is ultimately what keeps most people playing, not realism.

Jamski · April 27, 2003, 10:36

I just hate this game mechanic of kill lots of things, get experience, get more hit points. There has to be a more original way of doing things than that. Its just lazy game design - and that's how we get cliches.

-Jam

loinburger · April 27, 2003, 10:57

Scripted "Try to stop the bad guy before he/she becomes uber-powerful, but inevitably fail" stories. Final Fantasy games are prime culprits, but they're by no means the only culprit.

Related to this is the "Hey, you're not allowed to kill this person, at least not yet!" game mechanic. Morrowind and Fallout are the only RPG-style games that come to mind that do not include this game mechanic -- in the rest you're not allowed to kill the bad guys until they're sufficiently powerful, and you're not allowed to kill the good guys until you discover that they're really bad guys in disguise, no matter how blatantly obvious their latent evil may be.

Then there's the bane of almost all RTS games, the "Yeah, all that work you put into the previous level was for naught, because you're starting from square one again" game mechanic. Myth and Homeworld are the few games in my experience that do not follow this frustrating game mechanic, as well as, to a lesser extent, HOMM.

The "Psychotic Loner" cliche employed in most RPG's gets old after awhile. Just this once, I want to play a hero whose family and loved ones have not been destroyed and/or who has not forgotten his past. Maybe my hero can have a nagging wife, and she occasionally tracks me down just to ***** at me and make me mow the lawn.

The "Ever-Present Love Interest" cliche employed in most RPG's also gets kind of old after awhile. I don't understand why my psychotic loner hero is content to be a psychotic loner up until he gets a female in his adventuring party, at which point his gonads apparently kick into overdrive. It's even more frustrating when my hero's love interest is obviously going to end up dead.

Felch · April 27, 2003, 14:56

One way you could avoid the hit point cliche would be to base damage on where you're hit, and to penalize you accordingly, a leg shot slowing you down, an arm shot disabling that arm, and a head shot killing you. Likewise, harder enemies wouldn't have to deal more damage and have more life, they could be quicker and more accurate than the disposable ninjas.

SCG · April 27, 2003, 16:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Felch X
One way you could avoid the hit point cliche would be to base damage on where you're hit, and to penalize you accordingly, a leg shot slowing you down, an arm shot disabling that arm, and a head shot killing you. Likewise, harder enemies wouldn't have to deal more damage and have more life, they could be quicker and more accurate than the disposable ninjas.

there are quite a few online muds that have that feature (limb damage), with 100% damage only being fatal all the time to head and torso. some even have alternative ways to gain experience outside of the hack-n-slash model

Jaguar · April 27, 2003, 18:32

Guns that always spawn at the same place so you know where to get them. This isn't so bad, except when coupled with another cliche: the Uber-gun that rules them all. Every game then becomes a race to the uber-gun's spawning spot. (007 Nightfire is the worst when it comes to this. There is a rocket launcher that is heat-seeking, so you can fire it randomly and it will hit someone, and it knows to go around walls. :eek!:)

Traianvs · April 27, 2003, 19:01

Quote:

Originally posted by SCG

there are quite a few online muds that have that feature (limb damage), with 100% damage only being fatal all the time to head and torso. some even have alternative ways to gain experience outside of the hack-n-slash model

In early 2000 there was this great game Soldier of Fortune that had this concept very nicely done...

26 hit zones, being able to gut people, shoot off limbs, forearms, a full pair of legs (with a shotgun of course) and naturally head shots...

In multiplayer this is even better as the shotgun has more power (don't really know why) so you can do all kinds of crazy stuff with it.. Anyway it isn't very popular, and I don't know why!!!

Btw Loinbruger, you need the BG series, the storyline is great not to say fantastic!(it's not about a loner whose wife etc have been killed...)

St Leo · April 28, 2003, 03:24

Chainmail bikinis can get rather cliche. Disciples probably does the best in that respect of all the fantasy games. A lot of the female units in it are wearing comfortable clothes.

Paperdoll artifact management annoys me. Why can't I wield two swords at the same time? I liked the Heroes II model where I could have twelve or so swords simultaneously.

Faux realism annoys me. I think you all know what that is.

asleepathewheel · April 28, 2003, 06:10

I hate how the princess is ALWAYS in another castle. Whats up with that?

Adagio · April 28, 2003, 09:34

What also bothers me, in strategy games is the undo-what-you-just-did thingy...

Here's an example: In Tropico 2, in first level, you have 3 things to do: Build 3 different buildings. Ok, not that hard, you quickly build those 3 buildings in some logical places and then win the level... Level 2 is continiuing the story: You're still on the same island, you have build the same buildings... BUT:
ALL those 3 buildings are now placed in wrong places, because it loads a new save-game instead of continiuing the old save-game.

You simply get the feeling, the story doesn't fit

I also hate the fact, that in every game (SP), there's always 1 (for few) leading-role, who's sole purpose is to kill hordes of enemies... Would be better if they had fewer enemies, who'd be much tougher to kill...

Quote:

Originally posted by Trajanus
In early 2000 there was this great game Soldier of Fortune that had this concept very nicely done...

Great game

Adagio · April 28, 2003, 09:37

oh, and one more thing:

Why is it often (not always, but often), that the game has supernatural influence... I have many times seen where it starts a completely normal story, but after short time, your character finds out, the enemy is the reincanation of the Devil himself (or believes he's the devil himself)...

Tuberski · April 29, 2003, 19:45

Did anyone ever play Phantasie I,II, III?

Phantasie III had you regularly getting your leg or your arm chopped off, with no way to regain it.

ACK!

HolyWarrior · April 30, 2003, 00:31

One example that always got me:

In Might and Magic VIII, a fully loaded party could run down a herd of centaurs, WITHOUT using magic!

That is just wrong...

Malleus · April 30, 2003, 01:01

Quote:

Originally posted by War of Art
Mana.
Need I say more? Isn't this "food from heaven" anyway?

-Jam

Only because this always bugs me:

Mana (ma·na) [Maori, integrity, charisma, prestige.]
n.

1) A supernatural force believed to dwell in a person or sacred object.
2) Power; authority.

NOT the Jewish food from heaven.

M

DinoDoc · April 30, 2003, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
(007 Nightfire is the worst when it comes to this. There is a rocket launcher that is heat-seeking, so you can fire it randomly and it will hit someone, and it knows to go around walls. :eek!:)

That's not a heat seeking rocket. They are manually controlling it.

FlameFlash · April 30, 2003, 11:49

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That's not a heat seeking rocket. They are manually controlling it.

Never played the game, but that's just funny.

In a game I have it has the same thing... can't remember what the weapon is called but when you shoot you suddenly go into "bullet view" and ride the missile until it blows up.

Here's a cliche just to stay on topic:

The world has either ended and your characters are trying to make ends meet by playing through the game in this semi-alter reality... or the world is on the brink and only your small group of characters can save the day.

St Leo · April 30, 2003, 16:01

Does anyone else hate games that have stories? Those really tick me off. I want some free-form action where I am shooting aliens because I am a deranged psychopath and not because they are actually threatening.

Adagio · April 30, 2003, 16:19

I hate games that doesn't have any good story...

Traianvs · April 30, 2003, 17:31

Quote:

Originally posted by St Leo
Does anyone else hate games that have stories? Those really tick me off. I want some free-form action where I am shooting aliens because I am a deranged psychopath and not because they are actually threatening.

that's called multiplaying

particularly, if you're a deranged psychopath, try SoF1

(i'm really trying to promote it hehe). It is simply made for sickos who love shotgun action, and there's no story, just carnage and slaughter