Old Europe meets

[TCO]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Yes of cource it resonates if you think it makes a point from your political perspective. That doesn't make the term good. IMHO it's just a euphemism for an insult. It's so much easier refute someone with a cliché but that doesn't make ones statements valid or meningful.

Oh...don't get so buttclenched. We are used to all the "cowboy" remarks. Learn to take it a little.

[Spiffor]

Yes, but it is true that you are cowboys.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Spiffor

...a world with the United States, Europe, Whina, India and Latin America ...

I know it is bad style to complain about typos, but "Whina" is too funny

Who, between Tony Blair and Jacques Chirac, has most potential for his views to being followed ? After originally facing a hostile public opinion, the Prime Minister is considerably strengthened by the Iraqi war. By taking the initiative on the European defense with Germany, Belgium and Luxemburg, the French President has created a "trailblazing group". However, the Blairist idea is a majority in the widened EU, as the either indignated or sarcastic reactions to the mini summit show it.

I rather tend to go with Blair here. The problem with the multi-polar world is that we can´t simply declare our world multi-polar when this doesn´t have anything to do with the current reality. And even if we seek to create such a world, I don´t see any chance to form a pole which acts openly against the US, this will end in a big mess. We can´t overpower them, that is an illusion. What we can reach is (and this is a high goal, given the current situation in Europe) a kind of political balance in certain fields so that we accept the role of the US, and they accept our positions.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BeBro


I know it is bad style to complain about typos, but "Whina" is too funny

OK, I'll keep it

[TCO]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yes, but it is true that you are cowboys.

We like our stereoptype. And as with most stereotypes there is a grain of truth in it...

[Ned]

Originally posted by BeBro

I rather tend to go with Blair here. The problem with the multi-polar world is that we can´t simply declare our world multi-polar when this doesn´t have anything to do with the current reality. And even if we seek to create such a world, I don´t see any chance to form a pole which acts openly against the US, this will end in a big mess. We can´t overpower them, that is an illusion. What we can reach is (and this is a high goal, given the current situation in Europe) a kind of political balance in certain fields so that we accept the role of the US, and they accept our positions.

Blair made quite an impression on the US. I hope he has a similar effect on Europe. Blair is a great leader and a man of vision. I truly hope the Europeans listen to him.

We need to unite, Europe and the US, against the dictators of the world and the abusers of human rights. Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and now Iraq show what can happen even if we are somewhat united. We can make the world better.

It is truly sad that Chirac, furthering his idea of an anti-US European "balance," openly and not so openly, supported one of the most brutal dictatorships the world has ever seen. I see that the French people are beginning to have second thoughts about what Chirac did. They should.

[Kropotkin]

Oh...don't get so buttclenched. We are used to all the "cowboy" remarks. Learn to take it a little.

Just because there's remarks just as stupid doesn't mean that this one (or the others) should be used at all. You mean for example that women should accept to be talked about as if they where less able just because this has "stuck"? Well, I'll remember this if I ever find you whining about americabashing.

We like our stereoptype. And as with most stereotypes there is a grain of truth in it...

I guess you mean in the same way that niggers are considered lazy and stupid.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Fez, oh yes tell me more about how outdated the german industry is!

It is outmoded and outdated. How the hell can you in denial about that? They failed to modernize and are paying the PRICE! It has to do with dumb labor laws giving the upper hand to labor unions.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by BeBro

I rather tend to go with Blair here. The problem with the multi-polar world is that we can´t simply declare our world multi-polar when this doesn´t have anything to do with the current reality. And even if we seek to create such a world, I don´t see any chance to form a pole which acts openly against the US, this will end in a big mess. We can´t overpower them, that is an illusion. What we can reach is (and this is a high goal, given the current situation in Europe) a kind of political balance in certain fields so that we accept the role of the US, and they accept our positions.

Multipolar world = dangerous world. They last one included nasties like the Cold War, arms race, propping up tinpot dictatorships, high stakes espionage, and probably a lot more unpleasantries I'm forgetting. Probably the best thing that happened in the 20th century was the fall of Soviet Union, which helped put an end to 40+ years of insanity.

What the US, Europe and Canada (and maybe Russia someday) need to do is be is a united force for human rights and economic development in the world. Trying to play one against the other is just starting down the long dark road of multipolarism again. It's nuts and frankly, it's just plain bad for the human kind.

That doesn't mean the US should have all the power, however. We should democraticly decide on international action. What is needed is a stronger political union of the "free world". The UN doesn't cut it.

[gsmoove23]

Will the next incarnation of the UN cut it? International action won't 'cut it' until we are willing to put the resources into it and put alot of trust into the process. That means going along even when we may disagree with its decisions.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Yes, but it is true that you are cowboys.

Nothing is cooler than a cowboy.


Unless he's gay, then it's arkward.

[Spiffor]

Argentinan cowboys are way cooler than yours. I mean, they are real
Now, about Argentinian gay cowboys...

[Giancarlo]

What are you talking about?

[TCO]

We have real cowboys. When I lived in NM, I used to see advertisements for working cowboys. It is a lot like carpentry (you are supposed to have your own gear).

I think Argentina is muy cool also, though.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Fez
What are you talking about?

About the people working in ranches in Argentina, who actually ride horses to guide the cattle. I've forgotten the Argentinian name though.

[GePap]

Look at a Map of Europe: Italy, spain and Britian are all add-ons. You can have "Europe" without any of them, you can't have "Europe" without Germany and France. As for Fez's "Germany is outdated": Germany's GDP is what, 3 times that of Spain? And France's GDP is bigger than the UK's. As for the East, they are way behind economically, and will stay there for a while, plus a lot of their capital comes from, where else, "Old Europe"...

But beyond this: the big problem with the EU military in general is that they don;t spend enough and spend on the "wrong things". The UK and France both spend about 3% of GNP on defense (I think France now spends more than the UK) and both have the ability to send forces world-wide, though the French are less able to move Heavy forces. The big porbems are Spain, Italy and Germany. The Germans have a large, heavy army but spend only 1.5% GNP on defense, and are not updating their weapons systems: they have antiquted support vehicles (most of their trucks are so old they suck up money on maintanence) and they are not buying precision bombs and other modern equipment.Spain's military is a joke: at least the Germans could in theory defend themselves form thier neighbors, not so Spain. And the Italians, while better than Spain, are much like the Germans.

In theory, if the whole EU spent 3% of their GNP on defense, they would almost rival the Us in defense spending, though as long as national armmies are the norm, redundancies will live on.

[Giancarlo]

Numbers aren't much of the issue here. It matters what these numbers are made up of. It is a fact that Spain is one of the fastest growing in Europe. Germany has experienced nil growth. Spain's military is not a joke. We buy from the Germans I will say. Our Leopard 2A4 stockpile... we have a good airforce of F-18s and Mirage F-1s. So you are a joke.

[GePap]

Oh, Fez, you are so adorable when you are you...well, not really.

Spain's military is still one of the weakest in Europe give the size of Spain as compared to other members. It is ncie to see they are trying to rectify the situation but if you claim that Spain's military is the equal of even the Italians, well, I will have nothign but laughter for you.

As for the economy: what's unemployment down to? 15%? I never said the German's aren;t in a funk. BUt they are still way ahead of you. when sapnish companies have the power of German companies, well, then you can say something.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Spiffor

About the people working in ranches in Argentina, who actually ride horses to guide the cattle. I've forgotten the Argentinian name though.

I think it is gauchero.

BTW, "cowboy" is not just a term from the movies or a pejorative (Euro version) or praise (Ami version). It actually means a working cowhand. Spend some time in the West. You'll see.

[TCO]

Maybe it is vacaro?

[Giancarlo]

Thanks Gepap for looking at my points.

Spain's military is still one of the weakest in Europe give the size of Spain as compared to other members.

True. I am not denying. We don't have too much indigenous equipiment. Some of our naval and infantry vehicles are built in Spain but we mostly order overseas. We have changed our military from a conscript force to a professional force showing excellent amounts of capability in missions in the Baltic and other parts of the world.

http://www.ejercito.mde.es (That is the address, perhaps without the www...)

It is ncie to see they are trying to rectify the situation but if you claim that Spain's military is the equal of even the Italians, well, I will have nothign but laughter for you.

It is not. Italy has managed to develop the Ariete C1 which is my favorite tank. Spain is a little far from that. We are going to be at that stage in some time.

As for the economy: what's unemployment down to? 15%?

In Spain about 10-11% depending on seasonally adjusted averages.

I never said the German's aren;t in a funk. BUt they are still way ahead of you.

Maybe.

when sapnish companies have the power of German companies, well, then you can say something.

German companies have more problems than we do despite being larger.

[GePap]

Germany has various structural problems, but the underlying economic foundations are sound. Surely the germans need reform at home, but they are big players abroad as well. Volkswagen is number 3 car maker, Daimler does good business (and got suckered by those chrystler folks), siemens, Bayer, bertlesmann are all significant players in thier international fields.

[Giancarlo]

Yeah Gepap, I never denied that. Daimler is good... and so is Siemens...

But our companies are approaching these German ones more quickly then you may belief. Repsol is one of these companies.

Germany right now has a problem with the labor unions and giving too much power to them. That will cause the economy to falter.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GePap
And France's GDP is bigger than the UK's.

That is much of a muchness. The economies are about the same size.

[gunkulator]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Will the next incarnation of the UN cut it?

Depends on how it is organized. Similar to the EU, the "new UN" should require some minimum level of human rights in order to be allowed to join. The basic problem today is that unelected dictators are allowed a democratic vote in what the UN says and does. This is unnacceptable.

International action won't 'cut it' until we are willing to put the resources into it and put alot of trust into the process. That means going along even when we may disagree with its decisions.

Obviously. That is why I advocate much closer political ties amongst first world nations. A populace that already supports a representative gov't is more likely to accept the decisions of a larger representative body. The current situation today where nations like Libya are allowed to influence UN policies make the UN a mockery of democratic ideals.

[Spiffor]

Germany's main problem is that its economy was highly oriented towards high-end products with nearly no competition on these markets. The competition is now here very much, which lowers German sales.

There is also a problem of adaptation to the current standard of capitalism, as German companies still rely very heavily on banking to find their capital rather than stock markets.

But Fez has one point on this : Germany has real trouble to enter the information economy, in the meaning that German software and web-related industry is really weak, and no ambitious program to rehabilitate the economy exists yet.

This is a problem common to Europe, which seems not to emphasize enough on high-tech, but rather on "old" (read : what was modern in the 70'-80's) activities : consumer industry, entertainment, financials...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
That is much of a muchness. The economies are about the same size.

Ewuivalent GDP
Equivalent military spending
Only nuclear powers of Europe

How come we look so much like Britain !? We should tank our GDP and scrap our nuclear and military potential immediately
No way we remain like the Rosbifs

[TCO]

I want to sucker some more capital out of Germany. Come on. Take something over. You need to show us how much stronger you are than us. Here, have some stock...

[TCO]

Argentine cowboy term?

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by GP
I want to sucker some more capital out of Germany. Come on. Take something over.

They are rather pre-occupied with Poland at the moment.