WAR Party: Early battle plans

Donegeal · April 30, 2003, 09:17

Well, its never too early to start planing!

I know our Glorious SMC is a BIG fan of the Swordman campaign, however, I feel that it is in our best interest to have our first war with Archers. Our civ choice DEMANDS that our first attack is an Archer ruch.

Why?

For the simple reason that Archers upgrade into BEZERKERS!!!

The target of this initial attack should obviously be our closest neighbor, the Ottomans (who NEED to be dealt with before they get their UU). Three (maybe four if we can squeeze it in) cities with barracks (only 20 shields as a military civ!) then go nuts on building our upgradable Archers.

Discuss!

UnOrthOdOx · April 30, 2003, 09:23

Berserker upgrade cost 100 EA. FYI.

Current DM plan (subject to change) Warrior/scout in 3 turns, settler in 11 turns, spear/warriors, settler, barracks

City 2 placed no later than 15 turns from now. 4/5 to build warrior, 4/5 for second warrior(might go spear here), settler, barracks

Donegeal · April 30, 2003, 09:36

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Berserker upgrade cost 100 EA. FYI.

Yes, but they cost 70 shields each to build. Which do you think is easier to come up with, 100 gold or 70 shields?

Inverse Icarus · April 30, 2003, 09:46

i've done some archer rushes in my day, and they usually work out fairly well.

when they fail, however, they fail miserably.

but we do start with warrior code, and we do have bronze working now, se we can archer rush as soon as we have some groundwork laid down.

if we're gonna do it we're gonna do it fast.

Inverse Icarus · April 30, 2003, 09:54

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Berserker upgrade cost 100 EA. FYI.

Current DM plan (subject to change) Warrior/scout in 3 turns, settler in 11 turns, spear/warriors, settler, barracks

City 2 placed no later than 15 turns from now. 4/5 to build warrior, 4/5 for second warrior(might go spear here), settler, barracks

umm... try 50 gold.

STOP UNDERMINING THE WAR EFFORT!

(and yes, i don't have leos in this scenario, see attachment, although this is 1.21)

as for your plan, sounds good. how fast is Asgard going to grow, as compared to to how long the settler will be out? would having a spare warrior garrisoned (and thus, a workable third citizen) speed anything up? the garrison could also escort the settler.

another scout would be nice, but i can easily see yourself justiifying a warrior.

Inverse Icarus · April 30, 2003, 10:03

archers cost 20 shields. when Asgard is size 3, it should be working 3 shielded grasslands, all mined (this is assuming we don't overlap. if we do, it could work a forest, which would aid in pop control).

working these 3 tiles (2 shields a pop), plus the home tile of 1 shield, it's 4 turns an archer or spear (i loathe non-accel production, too used to it i suppose). all other cities could have comparable rates, assuming they get to size 3, and corruption isn't a superwhore.

we should be pumping out settlers too (i'm not the DM minister, but whatever), even when our preperations are in full swing, teetering between 2 and 4 pop.

Hot Mustard · April 30, 2003, 10:07

A thought on long-term military strategy:

On Diety, we cannot expect to complete any wonders ahead of the AI without an early decision and focussed effort to do so. There's two wonders that I think could be pivotal for us in this game.

The Great Lighthouse - If there's any chance at all (I haven't played Diety enough to know.) that we could get the Great Lighthouse, we should go for it.

Leonardo's Workshop - The combined arrival of our UU and this wonder (Invention) makes it seem predestined. If we build legions of archers in the ancient age, save some funds, and stockpile shields somewhere to complete this wonder shortly after it is available, we can send out waves of Viking war expeditions that will be unmatched until Marines.

I think the combination of these two wonders could win the game.

Inverse Icarus · April 30, 2003, 10:30

the way this map looks, to me anyway, we won't be needing the lighthouse (or boats) any time soon.

Hot Mustard · April 30, 2003, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
the way this map looks, to me anyway, we won't be needing the lighthouse (or boats) any time soon.

Look at the minimap - there's plenty we don't know. Just because our mapmakers were wise enough to a) not make the islands too small for effective starts; and b) give us an early opponent so that the game doesn't turn into an isolationist snore-fest - doesn't mean they didn't respect our wishes for an island-hopping map.

Aggie · April 30, 2003, 11:42

Since we have an enemy so near we must begin preparations for an invasion. We need about 3/4 cities to crank out archers then rush our dear neighbors. Hopefully we can do this before they have a chance to wipe us out.
Aggie

Octavian X · April 30, 2003, 15:02

Agreed. The key to the game this early is fast expansion, and early, overpowering attack.

UnOrthOdOx · April 30, 2003, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX

umm... try 50 gold.

STOP UNDERMINING THE WAR EFFORT!

(and yes, i don't have leos in this scenario, see attachment, although this is 1.21)

I swear it was 100 last time I played...

Do you happen to have accel production on that scenario?

Quote:

as for your plan, sounds good. how fast is Asgard going to grow, as compared to to how long the settler will be out? would having a spare warrior garrisoned (and thus, a workable third citizen) speed anything up? the garrison could also escort the settler.

Settler will be out 3-5 turns. The third tile would not be upgraded, but would bring in another 2 food/turn (4 total since we will lose 2 tiles worked for the settler) +1 commerce since it would be on the river. Im not entirely sure on how the food is saved after a settler comes out, is it a % of the food box, or is it a set #?

ie, if we spent 2 extra turns in a size 3, that would yield us 8 food more than we would have if we popped the settler at turn 11. If all that food is stored, we would be at size 2 ONE turn after the settler left, assuming my math and memory is correct, I don't have the game in front of me right now.

CiverDan · April 30, 2003, 17:09

An archer rush sounds like the best plan. make an early attack against the ottomans, then lay low until invention. The only thing that my change these plans is if we have other civs with Knight-replacing UU's, like the Chinese or arabs.

Inverse Icarus · April 30, 2003, 19:22

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx

I swear it was 100 last time I played...

Do you happen to have accel production on that scenario?

god, i loathe non-accel prod games

Kloreep · April 30, 2003, 19:29

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I swear it was 100 last time I played...

Do you happen to have accel production on that scenario?

Whatever the explanation is, I think the 50 gold cost must have been reduced from the default we'll have to pay; normal upgrades are 20*editor value (or 2*cost), and 50 is not divisible by 20.

Quote:

Settler will be out 3-5 turns. The third tile would not be upgraded, but would bring in another 2 food/turn (4 total since we will lose 2 tiles worked for the settler) +1 commerce since it would be on the river. Im not entirely sure on how the food is saved after a settler comes out, is it a % of the food box, or is it a set #?

ie, if we spent 2 extra turns in a size 3, that would yield us 8 food more than we would have if we popped the settler at turn 11. If all that food is stored, we would be at size 2 ONE turn after the settler left, assuming my math and memory is correct, I don't have the game in front of me right now.

All food is saved when a settler is popped (assuming the city doesn't grow the same turn the settler completes, of course). I'm not sure how two extra turns would yield 8 more food... yes, the third grass river tile would yield two food, but the citizen working the tile would eat two food. (Or maybe I'm not following the times involved?) The only gain would be one commerce, plus a faster bounce back like you say (though the commerce would be sucked up by the lux slider unless we have two garrison units in Asgard by the time it reaches size 3).

Of course, once we get a third tile even partially improved by the worker, a third Asgard citizen will be much more valuable.

Panag · May 1, 2003, 00:55

hi ,

so when are we going to take care of egypt , ....

before they have chariots or not

have a nice day

MrWhereItsAt · May 1, 2003, 04:56

WTF is Egypt?

I see only the Ottomans

Panag · May 1, 2003, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
WTF is Egypt?

I see only the Ottomans

hi ,

oops , sorry , yellow color , edrine to small and jetlag

well whatever , what are we going to do with them

have a nice day

BigFree · May 1, 2003, 11:28

We're going to turn them into foot stools!

Panag · May 1, 2003, 11:38

hi ,

a good plan is being worked out > http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...21#post1955721

have a nice day

GodKing · May 1, 2003, 12:30

An idea.

Swords are a lot more effective than archers.

On deity, the AI will have lots of spears in their cities.

There is lots of time until we get the tech to have our UU.

Therefore, I suggest we go with a warrior/sword upgrade program unless we don't have iron nearby. We will have lots of good production cities later on to pump out the 20-50 archers we will like to upgrade at that time (money depending of course).

Swords are also usefull as they have some defensive abilities as well. And remember, when you upgrade that super experienced archer, guess who looses all the experience and get to be a veteran and not an elite with GL possibilities? Whereas a sword is strong enough to kill a pike or even a weakend musket and keep itself alive to generate that GL.

I recomend a sword campaign until we are about to change eras, when we begin a massive construction program.

Panag · May 1, 2003, 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by GodKing
An idea.

Swords are a lot more effective than archers.

On deity, the AI will have lots of spears in their cities.

There is lots of time until we get the tech to have our UU.

Therefore, I suggest we go with a warrior/sword upgrade program unless we don't have iron nearby. We will have lots of good production cities later on to pump out the 20-50 archers we will like to upgrade at that time (money depending of course).

Swords are also usefull as they have some defensive abilities as well. And remember, when you upgrade that super experienced archer, guess who looses all the experience and get to be a veteran and not an elite with GL possibilities? Whereas a sword is strong enough to kill a pike or even a weakend musket and keep itself alive to generate that GL.

I recomend a sword campaign until we are about to change eras, when we begin a massive construction program.

hi ,

indeed , this idea is now being worked out , thanks to don and his city planning , .....

but there is one drawback , money , .... we shall need lots of money , we should start to put something on the side from now on , .....

have a nice day

BigFree · May 1, 2003, 19:14

Quote:

Originally posted by GodKing
An idea.

Swords are a lot more effective than archers.

On deity, the AI will have lots of spears in their cities.

There is lots of time until we get the tech to have our UU.

Therefore, I suggest we go with a warrior/sword upgrade program unless we don't have iron nearby. We will have lots of good production cities later on to pump out the 20-50 archers we will like to upgrade at that time (money depending of course).

Swords are also usefull as they have some defensive abilities as well. And remember, when you upgrade that super experienced archer, guess who looses all the experience and get to be a veteran and not an elite with GL possibilities? Whereas a sword is strong enough to kill a pike or even a weakend musket and keep itself alive to generate that GL.

I recomend a sword campaign until we are about to change eras, when we begin a massive construction program.

I thouhgt that we'd need to attack sooner rather than later. It would take a bit of time aquire IW. If we produce a bunch of Warrior's with no Iron nearby, we are doomed. The Archer rush is a better bet seeing how close the Ottomans are.

Swords could be use on our next target, if Iron's around for us.

Panag · May 1, 2003, 19:28

Quote:

Originally posted by BigFree

I thouhgt that we'd need to attack sooner rather than later. It would take a bit of time aquire IW. If we produce a bunch of Warrior's with no Iron nearby, we are doomed. The Archer rush is a better bet seeing how close the Ottomans are.

Swords could be use on our next target, if Iron's around for us.

hi ,

we should not waste our time on a large bunch of warriors , .....

have a nice day

Beta · May 1, 2003, 21:27

I'm with BigFree on this one. Archer rush. If we wait for swordsmen - well, the wait will be too long. This is deity. We are militaristic. Let's rock.

And this from the founder of the Havamal - the party of faith and knowledge. Pump out those archers!

Jethro83 · May 2, 2003, 07:24

While swordsmen are more effective in battle than archers, there will be a longer wait to build them, as they are more expensive.

Since this is Deity, and we'll need a large military VERY quickly, I have to agree that archers are the way to go.

Donegeal · May 2, 2003, 09:46

WAR Party members go check out the city-placement thread and poll! The tight (one tile placement) plan (that would be A.3 Other listed below on the poll) will allow us to pump out Archers/Spearmen in three turns and Swords in 5. The one tile placement will allow us to build the most units in the shortest amount of time.

For those that don't like close cities, just remember that if we build at one tile spacing, it will be easier to re-arange later than two tile spacing.

Zero · May 2, 2003, 13:05

in deity, ais star out with some ynits,

rushing an ai is not possible. archer or swords.. either way we have to build considerable amount.

Panag · May 2, 2003, 13:15

hi ,

we should have a couple berserkers to protect those archers and to stand up against whatever else they might have , .....

we should also start to put a couple gold a turn away for them up^grades , .....

have a nice day