View Poll Results: Is terrorism a legitimate form of warfare?
Yes 31 31.00%
No 47 47.00%
There are no legitimate forms of warfare 18 18.00%
banana warfare is the only legitimate form of warfare 4 4.00%
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Old May 5, 2003, 03:52   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


The suicide bomber generally disguises himself as a civilian, and travels among civilians, therefore using civilians as shields. If you allow that his enemies have a legitimate right to fight back then they are left with no choice but to fight civilians. Thus the suicide bomber is a terrorist even if he targets enemy soldiers because he is virtually mandating terrorim as a defensive reply. It is as if a group of soldiers, uniformed or not, had gathered a crowd of civilians around themselves as they approached an enemy position.
You don't have to advertise yourself to lose the "terrorist" status. Same things go for guerrilla units, special operations forces, spies, etc. Are they terrorists too? Under your definition apparently yes.

Since when is the right to fight back "legitimate"? When you get into a fight do you let your opponent hit you back? hell no!
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Old May 5, 2003, 03:54   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quote:
The blood of eleven million people since the end of WWII is on our collective hands. That doesn't sound like minimizing casualties. That sounds like a Holocaust.
Even if it is true:

Hmmm... 11 million in 40-50 years vs. 11 million in 4-5 years... yep, totally comparable .
So, you base atrocities on a per annum basis? Sad...
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Old May 5, 2003, 03:56   #213
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BTW I think 11 million is too high in terms of directly responsible deaths (i.e. war-related). However, indirectly (i.e. consequences of foreign and economic policy), I'd think it may even be waaaay too low.
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Old May 5, 2003, 04:17   #214
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So, you base atrocities on a per annum basis? Sad...
Um... YEAH!

11 million over 5 years is NO WAY comparable to the same number over 50!
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Old May 5, 2003, 05:39   #215
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Terrorism is not a legitimate form of warfare (ie. it shouldn't be supported by governments) but neither is 'freedom fighting'.
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Old May 5, 2003, 10:55   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
BTW I think 11 million is too high in terms of directly responsible deaths (i.e. war-related). However, indirectly (i.e. consequences of foreign and economic policy), I'd think it may even be waaaay too low.
hi ,

*cough*

when the IDF sended a couple people to goma zaire as liason officers in relief efforts they found themselfs standing on layers of humans , ....

rwanda / burundi / zaire lets say about 2.5 > 4 million , ....

1975 > 1980 cambodia , 1.5

somalia , eritrea , 3 million

shall we go on , .....

ethiopia , count stopped at 2.2 , sudan , more then a million ,

not to mention about all the people who are buying a farm each day cause they step on landmines , .....

bye
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:27   #217
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I agree with those figures Panag, I was just referring to wars directly related to US intervention, i.e. Vietnman, Korea, etc.

Those numbers would of course count in the "indirect" consequences but the blame should also go with the soviets for fostering revolutions just like the US did, and ESPECIALLY to the European colonialists who left a rotten mess out of Africa. I still find it the most hipocritical that these countries still have african countries pay debts when they have yet to pay their own moral ones.
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:29   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Furthermore, in our low-intensity wars, the ones in which we aren't the direct combants, but rather the men behind the curtians, we are murderous bastards. The blood of eleven million people since the end of WWII is on our collective hands. That doesn't sound like minimizing casualties. That sounds like a Holocaust.
Still waiting on statistics. US had no policy roles in the purges listed by Panag. What pogroms have been carried out on the behest of US policy?

Unless, of course, you mean the general US policy of dealing with recognized governments instead of overturning every oppressive, thieving dictator as we've just done in Iraq. Is that what you think the US should be doing?
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:29   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quote:
So, you base atrocities on a per annum basis? Sad...
Um... YEAH!

11 million over 5 years is NO WAY comparable to the same number over 50!
So, until some country comes up with an atrocity comparable to the Nazi Holocaust, then under your PoV its allright??

Being responsible for the deaths of 11 million over 5 years, over 50 or over 500 is just as terrible. Ask the families of those killed if they gave a damn about the years.
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:32   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by Straybow

Unless, of course, you mean the general US policy of dealing with recognized governments instead of overturning every oppressive, thieving dictator as we've just done in Iraq. Is that what you think the US should be doing?
Chile. Allende. Legit government. Toppled thanks to heavy CIA involvement.

BTW, what's your definition of "recognized govermnents"? Won an election? So did Hitler. Hey, didn't the US came to be formed after a revolution also??
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:34   #221
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As Imran originally said, "Even if it is true."

Master Zen, you still haven't shown that the US "has blood on its hands" for some alleged 11 million deaths. What isn't "alright" is accusing the US, or the West in general, of causing 11 million deaths without substantiation. Where and who are these alleged victims?

Imran, you shouldn't have given them that inch, as the lefties always take a foot.
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:35   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Those numbers would of course count in the "indirect" consequences
How does "indirect" compare in level of guilt with direct & indirect? I'm guessing that it is tangential at best.
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:38   #223
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Why wouldn't it compare?
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:45   #224
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It's all simply war. where did things get so screwed up?

A terrorist, be it a suicide bomber or whatever you want to call a terrorist, is simply someone at war with you who does not follow the same set of 'rules' that you've outlined, as far as combat goes. who says they have to??

that makes them an enemy of you. beyond that you can call them whatever you like.

Sure, some dress in ways that make them all but impossible to tell them apart from anyone else. Some (like the US) 'dress' their weapons so it's all but impossible to see them coming. what's the difference? That could be debated forever. In the end, be it a terrorist or a cruise missile, you've got a pile of dead people.
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Old May 5, 2003, 13:49   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Chile. Allende. Legit government. Toppled thanks to heavy CIA involvement.
Yes, we also helped to topple the Sandanistas in Nicaragua. And the 11 million casualties were in Chile and Nicaragua? No, not even 100k IIRC.
Quote:
BTW, what's your definition of "recognized govermnents"? Won an election? So did Hitler. Hey, didn't the US came to be formed after a revolution also??
Many recognized governments come to power by offensive means. Unless we are prepared to war against them we recognize them in the hopes of changing their oppressive nature through diplomacy and economic pressures. Like PRC. Does that make us responsible for the tens of millions killed by the Chinese Commies? No.

When Hitler invaded neighboring countries we knew that only removing his party from power could stop him. Are you saying we should have intervened in 1935, at the first hint of oppression?

Where are the 11 million casualties bloodying our hands?
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:02   #226
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You never toppled the Sandinistas btw, tried but failed

I never said the 11 million were only in Chile and Nicaragua...? I don't think so, and I laid the blame not only on the US but on the Soviets and the Europeans.

As for the actual body count, just research a little into civil wars caused by colonialism, interventions to spread their ideology by both the US and the USSR... you'll find more than 11 million. That you don't want to see them is another thing entirely.
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:04   #227
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Quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
I laid the blame not only on the US but on the Soviets and the Europeans.
Why not blame the people who actually commited the crimes or are the people of the third world too stupid to be responsible for thier actions?
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:08   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why not blame the people who actually commited the crimes or are the people of the third world too stupid to be responsible for thier actions?
How smug to look at the world from the comfort of your suburban home...

As for our blame, you have to see every country's circumstances to see how much blame is due to domestic and foreign issues. I am nost saying that it is just the West's fault that the 3rd world is poor, but in many countries, has contributed rather substantially.
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:09   #229
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As for the actual body count, just research a little into civil wars caused by colonialism, interventions to spread their ideology by both the US and the USSR... you'll find more than 11 million. That you don't want to see them is another thing entirely.
Because, clearly, if the US had just pursued the Foreign Policy of Peace, Love and Happiness for All (tm), everything would have been peachy.

I make no claim of blamelessness, MZ, but come on!

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Old May 5, 2003, 14:15   #230
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Correction
The operative word there is "helped." Contras didn't oust the Sandanistas militarily, neither did the US oust the commies from Russia militarily. We won by economic victory, and when the Soviet Union fell, so did the Sandanistas who depended upon them for economic support.

Still haven't shown millions of deaths attributed to American policy. Now you say you "blame not only on the US but on the Soviets and the Europeans."

Where did you blame the Soviets? I cant find it… [sorry, missed that post somehow] and certainly che wasn't blaming the commies for anything when he first made the claim of 11 million casualties due to US policies.
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:19   #231
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I did not make the 11 million figure, I never agreed to the 11 million figure, and if you read my posts you'll see that, if he made the 11 million US casualties claim let him defend it, I'm laying the blame on the West and the Soviets.

And again, look at the countries individually. For example, Mexico, I lay the blame 90% on ourselves. But look at Cuba. You would be incredibly naive to think that it is Castro's fault alone that Cuba is in the doldrums. If the US didn't have the embargo, Cuba would be MUCH more prosperous and probably Castro would have been ousted by now. Do you know what is the one thing, the only thing that unites the Cuban people? Hatred towards the US. Lift the emargo and watch how Castro and cuban communism disappears once the cubans begin getting just a trickle of prosperity...
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:27   #232
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So, again, you would prefer that we intervene with military force and remove the commies in favor of an expatriot government? Until the Soviet Union fell there was zero chance of Castro being ousted.

I do agree that if not propped up any commie government will collapse on its own. Since all the Euroweenies would be more than happy to help Castro and his coterie remain in power, claiming all credit for any improvements that might result from a lifting of sanctions, again there is little chance of "regime change."
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:32   #233
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Why do you want to remove Castro in the first place, that's the question? What threat is he to the US or its interests? None whatsoever, live and let live, why the hell do you feel so self-righteous to act everywhere you feel like it?
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Old May 5, 2003, 14:40   #234
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Quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
I do agree that if not propped up any commie government will collapse on its own. Since all the Euroweenies would be more than happy to help Castro and his coterie remain in power, claiming all credit for any improvements that might result from a lifting of sanctions, again there is little chance of "regime change."
That's exactly why I have no love for the Europeans either
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Old May 5, 2003, 15:38   #235
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Why do you want to remove Castro in the first place, that's the question? What threat is he to the US or its interests? None whatsoever, live and let live, why the hell do you feel so self-righteous to act everywhere you feel like it?
There's no need for self-righteousness in justifying action against Castro's Cuba. US had strong economic ties with pre-Castro Cuba. Castro nationalized industries and Cuban expats (now predominantly US citizens) suffered losses. Many wish to reclaim family lands and business. That's as legitimate as any reason to fight for regime change.

In fact, the reason why the US didn't end sanctions under pinkos Carter and Clinton is because Cuban Americans would immediately file suits in Federal courts against Cuban assets and trade revenues involving American banks, and the resulting mess would be more trouble than maintaining the embargo.

There are probably banking laws in Europe that might allow transnational suits to be filed in Europe against Cuban trade revenues, too. Even if they don't succeed they would tie up those trade revenues, court dockets, Attorneys General or equivalent persons, etc.
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Old May 5, 2003, 15:42   #236
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So, until some country comes up with an atrocity comparable to the Nazi Holocaust, then under your PoV its allright??
Yes, because that's exactly what I said .
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Old May 5, 2003, 16:01   #237
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"Hatred towards the US"

Yeah, that's why Cuba has to execute 3 guys who hijack a ferry to try to escape to the US, etc
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Old May 6, 2003, 20:54   #238
chequita guevara
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Quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
There's no need for self-righteousness in justifying action against Castro's Cuba. US had strong economic ties with pre-Castro Cuba. Castro nationalized industries and Cuban expats (now predominantly US citizens) suffered losses.
The Cuban ex-pat who had their property seized were corrupt murderers and torturers, fellow travelors of Bautista and his National Guard. I have no sympathy for them. As for US companies, their problem was that Cuba nationalized the companies, and then paid for them with 20-year government bonds at the companies declared tax-values. The companies said they were being paid way too little, but that's their fault for cheating Cuba of taxes. If you tell the government your 7 million dollar business is only worth 2 million when it's time to pay taxes, and then they take it from you and give you two million for it, you screwed yourself.

The 11 million number is from John Stockwell and Noam Chomsky. Stockwell, was the former station chief of CIA operations against Angola, so he was in a position to know what we did and where. The figure given in 1990, was ten million and since then we've waged several wars and starved a country. That includes two million in Indochina and 2.5 million in Korea. Most of the people in those wars died as a result of areal bombing, and as we were the only side doing the bombing, that makes us the responsible party. On top of that, there are millions of Africans killed in US sponored proxy wars in Angola, Mozambique, the Horn of Africa. Maybe about a half a million Latin Americans died because of murderous governments installed by US sponsored coups. Half a million Indonesians died the same way. A third of the population of East Timor were killed by the Indonesians in an invasion that occured the day after President Ford left Indonesia (we gave our assent). The list goes on and on.

This doesn't include deaths we could have prevented through adequate health programs in the 3rd World.

BTW, the Sandinistas fell before the Soviets. Actually, they didn't fall, they were defeated in an election after ten years of civil war in which the Nicaraguan people finally just surrendered. The US ground down their will to resist, killing 40,000 Nicaraguans (out of three million, that would be as if someone killed 4 million Americans). The only actual socialist democracy to exist, and the US destroyed it . . . militarily. Since then, Nicaragua's become a cease pool of poverty. The US keeps pumping in millions of dollars each election to ensure that the Sandanistas loose. Imagine the outcry if China spent 283 million dollars during our elections. But it's legitimate when we do it.
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Old May 6, 2003, 20:58   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
"Hatred towards the US"

Yeah, that's why Cuba has to execute 3 guys who hijack a ferry to try to escape to the US, etc
I would point out, hypocrite, that kidnapping is a capital offense in the US. Those "hijackers" put the lives of fifty people at risk in a close-shore boat by taking it into the open seas. That would be like complaining that a group of Mexicans get executed after hijaking a bus into the Sonoran desert and threatening to shoot the passengers (remember, the hijackers threatened to throw passangers in the sea) if they were taken back to Mexico.

Free citizenship, money, and help finding a job. Yeah, right, they come to the US to escape Communism. Bullsh*t. They come for the same reason everyone comes to the US, better jobs!
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Old May 6, 2003, 23:32   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The 11 million number is from John Stockwell and Noam Chomsky. Stockwell, was the former station chief of CIA operations against Angola, so he was in a position to know what we did and where. The figure given in 1990, was ten million and since then we've waged several wars and starved a country. That includes two million in Indochina and 2.5 million in Korea.
And that also seems to include both civilian and military deaths of both sides, and even then, It's an overestimate:

Vietnam:
"U.S. casualties in Vietnam during the era of direct U.S. involvement (1961-72) were more than 50,000 dead; South Vietnamese dead were estimated at more than 400,000, and Viet Cong and North Vietnamese at over 900,000. "

That's ~1.4 million.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/sec...ndoftheWar.asp

Korean:
"Casualties in the war were heavy. U.S. losses were placed at over 54,000 dead and 103,000 wounded, while Chinese and Korean casualties were each at least 10 times as high. "
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/k/koreanw1a.asp

That's about ~1.2 million.

And it puts the entire blame of all casualties on both sides, civilian and military, solely on the US. Never mind the UN involvement in Korea or the French in Vietnam. Or that you were talking about how the US doesn't minimize civilian casualties, and indeed, deliberately targets them, when you mentioned the 11 million number.

Quote:
This doesn't include deaths we could have prevented through adequate health programs in the 3rd World.
So we're responsible for the death of people we could (debatebly) save? Maybe the US is guilty of the twelve million civilians slaughtered by the Nazis, too?

Give me a break.

Last edited by Edan; May 6, 2003 at 23:40.
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