May 5, 2003, 15:51
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#61
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Emperor
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Quote:
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There are no valid historical claims.
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Then Israel can claim legitimate conquest of the West Bank, etc. and everybody else should just shut their cakeholes. 
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May 5, 2003, 15:56
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#62
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Emperor
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great avatar Siro. 
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May 5, 2003, 15:58
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#63
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Emperor
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Kropo - there was a time when you were away. And you only recently returned to posting in ME threads. You and jaako have always been fun.
Could you get on ICQ again? I want to make you computer crash again 
(joking! I didn't do it! honest to god!)
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May 5, 2003, 16:01
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#64
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Emperor
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Well, the ME threads can get a bit tedious at time. Yes, really. So I haven't been up for it in a while.
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer
In GAIS we trust!
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May 5, 2003, 16:10
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#65
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Local Time: 20:46
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After the end of Babylonian captivity the Jews returned and numerically dominated the Gentile populations in the South, and gradually in areas of the North. The presence of dominant or significant population over a great length of time makes their claim to historical possession valid.
Mkay. What does historical possession have to do with anything, though?
In addition, there had been a significant Jewish population (~30%) in Jerusalem from 70 AD through the 19th century.
Though quite a few were killed by the Crusaders during their sack of Jerusalem.
Should Gaelic speaking peoples be able to claim any lands in North and West Europe just because they were there before the Germanic tribes took over? No, control is a matter of the present and it is not possible to install every displaced people into some hypothetical lands of their origin. So why Israel?
Hmm? I am not anti-Israel.
Then Israel has legitimately conquered Golan, the West Bank, Gaza, and Southern Lebanon.
No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either.
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May 5, 2003, 16:20
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#66
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Emperor
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Though quite a few were killed by the Crusaders during their sack of Jerusalem.
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which is spanky but doesn't change the fact that they still remained there.
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No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either.
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Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada
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May 5, 2003, 16:20
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#67
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Emperor
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 On historical possession: you were claiming Jews had none.
 On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then? Should we undo all conquests? Peru surrender Amazon basin lands back to Ecuador? Peru surrender to Spain? Peru surrender to some non-existant Incan Empire?
When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest. Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?
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(\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
(='.'=) Sponsored by the National Smurfmeat Council
(")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)
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May 5, 2003, 19:50
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#68
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Deity
Local Time: 10:46
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Quote:
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Originally posted by GP
Besides I have Horsie on ignore anyway. I found I don't miss anything, since he is to lazy to make real arguments anyway.
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Hmmm, must have got GP real good somewhere.
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May 5, 2003, 20:03
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#69
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King
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When we talk about a Jewish homeland we are talking about southern Palestine, Judea. All that is left off the desendents of the northern kingdom is a few hundred Samariatans. So the Palestinians should get everything north of Jerusalem and the Israelis should get everything south. The Temple Mount would be controled by the UN.
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The attempt to produce Heaven on Earth often produces Hell. -Karl Popper
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May 5, 2003, 20:04
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#70
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by St Leo
"Chretien Rocks "
"0wnZ"
"No such thing as a legitimate conquest. No such thing as a legitimate counter-conquest either."
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Then why don't you go the f*ck back to Europe? We don't want UBERFaggots here.
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May 5, 2003, 20:29
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#71
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Retired
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Zylka
Then why don't you go the f*ck back to Europe? We don't want UBERFaggots here.
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Gee Zylka... looking to get banned again I see.
TONE IT DOWN AND STOP WITH THE INSULTS!
Or your next post will be your last this week.
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May 5, 2003, 20:35
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#72
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Odin
When we talk about a Jewish homeland we are talking about southern Palestine, Judea. All that is left off the desendents of the northern kingdom is a few hundred Samariatans. So the Palestinians should get everything north of Jerusalem and the Israelis should get everything south. The Temple Mount would be controled by the UN.
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hi ,
*cough*
the UN cant even control what they are supposed to be doing on the northern , eastern or southern borders of Israel , .... they have troops all around , watching this , doing that , ..... and they fail , ....
so WHY would they be in charge of the temple mount , .... 
have a nice day
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May 5, 2003, 20:37
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#73
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Deity
Local Time: 10:46
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ming
Gee Zylka... looking to get banned again I see.
TONE IT DOWN AND STOP WITH THE INSULTS!
Or your next post will be your last this week.
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Ming is being very tolerant this week. Good to see 
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May 5, 2003, 20:41
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#74
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Retired
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__________________
Keep on Civin'
Civ V Civilization V Civ5 CivV Civilization 5 Civ 5 - Do your part!
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May 5, 2003, 20:42
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#75
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King
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Damn Azazel, is that a chemo-therapied orangutan in your avatar?!?!
UGH
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May 5, 2003, 20:49
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#76
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Retired
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Damn Zylka, is that a person asking to be banned in your avatar?!?!
UGH.
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Keep on Civin'
Civ V Civilization V Civ5 CivV Civilization 5 Civ 5 - Do your part!
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May 5, 2003, 20:51
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#77
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Emperor
Local Time: 14:46
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 8,057
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Straybow
On historical possession: you were claiming Jews had none.
On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then? Should we undo all conquests? Peru surrender Amazon basin lands back to Ecuador? Peru surrender to Spain? Peru surrender to some non-existant Incan Empire?
When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest. Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?
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Gadsden Purchase. (Just being a weenie. You have a good point.)
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May 5, 2003, 21:00
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#78
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King
Local Time: 00:46
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Join Date: May 2000
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Ming
Damn Zylka, is that a person asking to be banned in your avatar?!?!
UGH.
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What does that mean, if anything?
How does it pertain to my commenting on the ugliness of a suicide bomber?
For what reason should you or I consider a needle or a biohazard symbol a person?
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May 5, 2003, 21:03
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#79
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Local Time: 20:46
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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Posts: 5,085
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On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then?
I propose that we don't do any more border establishing by conquest. Just leave them where they are now and stick to normal diplomacy.
Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada
I also said that the First Nations can't legitimately counter-conquer Canada.
When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest.
Not if we agree to respect all national boundaries for the sake of respecting all national boundaries. Quebec separatists are swell chaps who respect national boundaries. Basque separatists, on the other hand...
Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?
Uh... Norway? Belgium? I don't really care.
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May 5, 2003, 21:07
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#80
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Emperor
Local Time: 02:46
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Quote:
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Originally posted by St Leo
On legitimate conquest: How do you propose borders be established, then?
I propose that we don't do any more border establishing by conquest. Just leave them where they are now and stick to normal diplomacy.
Then what are you doing living on unlegitimately conquered indian land? You're legitimizing it's conquest by living in canada
I also said that the First Nations can't legitimately counter-conquer Canada.
When we respect national boundaries we legitimize the processes that establish them, and that is conquest.
Not if we agree to respect all national boundaries for the sake of respecting all national boundaries. Quebec separatists are swell chaps who respect national boundaries. Basque separatists, on the other hand...
Show me one country whose borders were not established by conquest, hmmm?
Uh... Norway? Belgium? I don't really care.
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hi ,
belgium was born out of conquest , .....
one country who's borders are not made by conquest , easy , there are about a dozen , ... monaco , sealand , etc , .....
have a nice day
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May 5, 2003, 21:09
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#81
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Deity
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I think its clear from the historical record that area was always shared by a number of peoples.
So a political solution needs to take account of that.
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May 5, 2003, 21:18
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#82
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Such as? ( I am not disbuting the fact that William the Conqueror has indeed landed there, but doubting the fact that there is archeological evidence to the landing, the Battle of Hastings, and the existance of William the conqueror. Vikings have been landing on Britannia for many centuries. )
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The Norman conquest was an extraordinarily important event at the time, and William the Bastard was an extraordinarily important person. I'm no historian, but I'm absolutely certain that there are tons of chronicles about his conquest and rule of England. The most prominent one is the Bayeux Tapestry, for instance.
Edit: Check out this site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/3532/1066mem.htm
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Last edited by Ramo; May 5, 2003 at 21:24.
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