Most museum artifacts found

rah · May 5, 2003, 13:37

Granted that this is reported in a US newspaper, but it does make you wonder. Everyone is so eager to heap abuse on the US, just maybe, All of it is not justified. Even though I'll be the first to admit that some of it is.

I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between.

***************************

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ionworld%2Dhed

Most museum artifacts found
U.S. says only 38--not 170,000--missing

By Christine Spolar
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published May 5, 2003

BAGHDAD -- The vast majority of antiquities feared stolen or broken have been found inside the National Museum in Baghdad, according to American investigators who compiled an inventory over the weekend of the ransacked galleries.

A total of 38 pieces, not tens of thousands, are now believed to be missing. Among them is a display of Babylonian cuneiform tablets that accounts for nine missing items.

The most valuable missing piece is the Vase of Warka, a white limestone bowl dating from 3000 B.C.

The inventory, compiled by a military and civilian team headed by Marine Col. Matthew Bogdanos, rejects reports that Iraq's renowned treasures of civilization--up to 170,000 artifacts--had been lost during the U.S.-led war against Iraq. It also raises questions about why any of the artifacts were reported missing.

The looting seems to have occurred April 10-12, two days after museum officials fled the grounds amid a battle in which Fedayeen Saddam gunners entered the complex and began firing on advancing U.S. tanks.

In one instance, investigators found that intruders had taken some less-valuable artifacts from a storage room in the basement of the museum. That theft, in a little-known storage area, has raised suspicions that the thieves had knowledge of the museum and its storage practices.

Investigators armed with chisels and a sledgehammer broke through hastily constructed barricades Saturday to search several large storage rooms in the museum.

In one storage area on the second floor, they discovered evidence of a gunner's nest. From debris left behind, investigators concluded that a gunner was armed with an assault rifle and rocket-propelled grenades.

About a foot from the gunner's lookout was a hole punched through the wall by a 25 mm shell. Investigators surmised that the gunman fled after that single volley from allied forces.

Damage to the museum's administrative offices was extensive, with desks, wiring, fixtures and chairs hauled out by looters. Artifacts, apparently obscured in some instances by the rubble left by looters, emerged largely unscathed.

"There is no comparison in the level of destruction seen in the museum and that seen the administrative offices," Bogdanos said. "It's absolute wanton destruction in the offices. We didn't see anywhere near that destruction in the museum. [People] stole what they could use. ... They left the antiquities."

Investigators, compiling information about what occurred during the chaotic takeover of Baghdad by U.S.-led troops, are concluding that little damage occurred to antiquities displayed at the museum. Investigators counted 17 display cases destroyed out of 300 to 400 cases. Many of the items apparently were removed before the looting.

In addition, investigators have counted 22 items that were damaged, including 11 clay pots on display in corridors. Most of those damaged artifacts are restored pieces and can be restored again, museum officials told investigators.

The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the damaged antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum officials confirmed this week to investigators that the original head had been placed in a storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank before the war.

The inventory was compiled after investigators examined five large storage areas in the museum Saturday to check for looting. Each room was lined with shelves holding plastic containers filled with envelopes of small, less-valuable artifacts, such as beads or amulets.

There was no apparent sign of forced entry to the storage sites, and the doors were locked when investigators arrived. Museum staffers told investigators they had no keys to the room, so investigators remain uncertain how entry was made.

Investigators found that the basement storage area, which held thousands of small items not deemed suitable for display, had been disturbed in one of the rooms. They broke through a cinder-block barrier to the room to find hundreds of cardboard boxes intact and about 90 plastic boxes, containing about 5,000 less-valuable items, missing.

A boxful of such items was retrieved about a week ago near Al Kut, investigators said, and it is likely that the intruders are attempting to move other such artifacts outside Baghdad.

Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

Inverse Icarus · May 5, 2003, 13:41

suck it you anti war pinkos

orange · May 5, 2003, 13:58

let's hope...soo much history...it's invaluable

Bereta_Eder · May 5, 2003, 14:04

Just read the title but if that is so, great

It did good that Bush and the int. community followed my advice here on Apolyton and threatened criminal proceedings against anyone caught with those artifacts.

Arrian · May 5, 2003, 14:04

I did hear (on NPR I think) that there was a sub-basement or some sort of store room where there were all sorts of uncatalouged artifacts... so there was no way of knowing for sure what was missing from that part.

Is this it, perhaps:

Quote:

Investigators found that the basement storage area, which held thousands of small items not deemed suitable for display, had been disturbed in one of the rooms. They broke through a cinder-block barrier to the room to find hundreds of cardboard boxes intact and about 90 plastic boxes, containing about 5,000 less-valuable items, missing.

5000 less-valueable items... still 5000 items, and I'd be willing to be that serious historians/archeologists don't necessarily see those things as worthless.

This part sounds fishy... and I suspected an inside job from the beginning anyway:

Quote:

There was no apparent sign of forced entry to the storage sites, and the doors were locked when investigators arrived. Museum staffers told investigators they had no keys to the room, so investigators remain uncertain how entry was made.

Here's hoping they recover more stuff.

-Arrian

Giancarlo · May 5, 2003, 14:05

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
It did good that Bush and the int. community followed my advice here on Apolyton and threatened criminal proceedings against anyone caught with those artifacts.

Yeah I am sure they have been reading this forum all along...

On the other hand you never know!

uh Clem · May 5, 2003, 14:14

Oh man, I gotta get to the bank and stop payment on that check to the guy on E-Bay!

Thanks for the heads up, rah!

Spiffor · May 5, 2003, 15:14

Great, very great news

Let's hope they'll find all of them missing pieces, or almost. Since it seems to be a professional theft, the objects have chances to be more easily recovered.

The question is : where are the lies, and why are there lies ?

DanS · May 5, 2003, 15:17

This is very good news. This was the thing that made me think twice about the relative harmlessness of the looting.

The computers and furniture can all be replaced.

Ming · May 5, 2003, 15:34

I still love how they still blame the US for the looting.
Sure, we could have protected things better... but the last time I checked, most of the looting was done by Iraqi... Yes... we were responsible for robbing their history, while Iragi were making money selling them...

Kropotkin · May 5, 2003, 15:36

Obviously a lot of people like to make far fetched political points from this. It's all pretty silly.

The logic is really simple.

Lot of looting = bad.
Less or no looting = better.

That's all folks.

Solver · May 5, 2003, 15:37

Come on Ming... I have heard that the US command refused to dedicate soldiers to protecting stuff.

Then, I laughed when I heard that some US soldiers were surprised to know that Babylon is in Iraq

.

rah · May 5, 2003, 15:43

I think the fact that was on the front page of the paper shows that Americans were kind of pissed about the looting and wish we had done more to prevent it. Otherwise this would have appeared buried on page 8.

RAH
Just my opinion.

gsmoove23 · May 5, 2003, 15:43

Yet the nearby National Library was gutted by fire.

SlowwHand · May 5, 2003, 15:43

It had been my hope/belief that the artifact had been stashed away in advance, to keep safe.

Solver, ever the critic.

To the recovery.

Solver · May 5, 2003, 15:48

Quote:

Solver, ever the critic.

I've never said a bad word about the war or such stuff, I just like pointing the bad sides out

.

rah · May 5, 2003, 15:50

I am waiting for FOX NEWS to report that this means the Museum was never actually looted.

Kropotkin · May 5, 2003, 15:55

Yeah, in fact the american soldiers (the same that didn't know about Babylon) found and bought with them even more artifacts to the museum. Items they found during the advance when digging trenches.

SlowwHand · May 5, 2003, 15:55

I'm waiting for the report out of Al-Jazeera that the museums are at the White House.

Solver · May 5, 2003, 15:59

Quote:

Yeah, in fact the american soldiers (the same that didn't know about Babylon) found and bought with them even more artifacts to the museum. Items they found during the advance when digging trenches.

Indeed. But it's hard to keep myself from laughing, still

.

DRoseDARs · May 5, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
I still love how they still blame the US for the looting.
Sure, we could have protected things better... but the last time I checked, most of the looting was done by Iraqi... Yes... we were responsible for robbing their history, while Iragi were making money selling them...

Funny, I don't recall blaming the Coalition for the looting, but blaming them for not doing more to prevent it.

Obviously, if the Chicago Tribune article is accurate, then great.

However, that still doesn't excuse the lack of protection for the hospitals, universities, and the library.

DanS · May 5, 2003, 16:03

And here's some more to add to the brew...

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercuryne...aq/5788461.htm

But, he said, ``all sorts of people have been coming forward and telling us that they're turning this over to the U.S. forces for safekeeping for ultimate return to the Iraqi people, and they specifically tell us they are not turning this stuff over to the museum staff. They have told us this time and time again.''

SlowwHand · May 5, 2003, 16:03

Iraq could have been just a little more involved in stopping the looting earlier.
Eventually, they did.

rah · May 5, 2003, 16:06

While I'm not happy that the american forces didn't do enough to protect what should have been protected, I will say that the city fell much faster than anticipated and may have caught them off guard at first. And there was no way that there were enough troops to protect EVERYTHING. But more should have been done.

RAH

Solver · May 5, 2003, 16:09

You didn't need many forces to protect the museums. And actually, they asked the US to protect them even before Baghdad was taken.

Ming · May 5, 2003, 16:11

Quote:

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
However, that still doesn't excuse the lack of protection for the hospitals, universities, and the library.

And again... just WHO did the looting of the hospitals, universities, and burned the library... Hmmm, it wasn't the American Soldiers.

Yeah... more protection could have been provided. But the blame falls mostly ON THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY DID IT!

Just think if you stood in front of judge and said the following...

"I didn't see a cop around, so I just broke the window and stole what I wanted... blame the cop for not being there, don't blame me."

There aren't many judges in the world that would blame the cop...

rah · May 5, 2003, 16:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
You didn't need many forces to protect the museums. And actually, they asked the US to protect them even before Baghdad was taken.

That they asked before is insignificant in my opinion. The city wasn't in our hands yet. For all we know they made that request public so any insider looting would be blamed on the americans. The americans were asked to protect a lot of things prior.

DanS, good link.
The amount of effort that the US is doing to help recover the items is another indication that Bush thinks the American people were not happy about it. There may never be an official apology, but there are obviously people that think we are partly to blame.

DRoseDARs
Nice, sig, just noticed it

RAH

SlowwHand · May 5, 2003, 16:14

Troops were doing their job first, then helping police.
Imagine the concept.

"The problems of victory are far more agreeable than those of defeat, but they are no less difficult." - Winston S. Churchill

DRoseDARs · May 5, 2003, 16:23

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
While I'm not happy that the american forces didn't do enough to protect what should have been protected, I will say that the city fell much faster than anticipated and may have caught them off guard at first. And there was no way that there were enough troops to protect EVERYTHING. But more should have been done.

RAH

I don't know if I buy the idea that it caught them off guard. The US went on-and-on about how military might would scare off the Iraqi military ("Shock and Awe") and the Iraqi people would welcome their "liberation," so they must've at least THOUGHT about, even made some preliminary plans for the possiblity that Ba'ath control would crumble like a sh*tty cookie. Contingency planning is always a must. If it comes to light that there really wasn't more than a few hundred troops within, say, 100 miles of Baghdad and those troops were mostly used to secure the three ministries, then that just further exemplifies the questionable planning done by Rummy.

And protecting EVERYTHING wasn't the point (for those who missed what was being critisized). I'm running on the assumption that large numbers of troops were within the vicinity of Baghdad, say 2,000, but were kept back...just in case. It should have been possible to protect a few key hospitals, the library that got burned out, and the major university or at least some buildings on the campus (I don't know how large or spread out it is).

Rah, at least we agree that more should have been done to protect a few (more) key installations and that not all of the looting city-wide could have been prevented.

SlowwHand · May 5, 2003, 16:27

Another career civilian gives his 2 cents on the failure of the military.