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vmxa1 · July 10, 2003, 12:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
how does BB = battleship (im assuming) anyways

That is the USN designation for a battleship - BB12 as CVN is is nuc carriers, CA is heavy crusier, DE is frigate or destroyer escort.
I spend 5 years in the navy. so I use that.

vmxa1 · July 10, 2003, 12:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Why not Doomstars?

I will probably not have that tech. If I do get it, I may make a few with Stellar converters to destroy planets.
This is just a means of get the game over for me as I will not have to come back to smack any recolonization of the planet.

Lazerus · July 10, 2003, 15:39

Just played impossible tactical there.
Started next to the silicoid who started attacking almost straight away, i managed to get some decent ships out and was soon pushing them away, as soon as i was winning the gnolams decided to jump me for refusing to pay them a 10% tribute. I managed to kill both of these 2 but literally the turn after i did that i was framed and the mrrshan and alkari started hitting me, the alkari had almost no military techs and were a complete walkover however the mrrshan were just unbelievable !
i was losing 5 battleships against their one and the only real difference was them having plasma cannons (which were doing 200 damage over a huge range) compared to my graviton beams/phasors.
i managed to take out 2 of their main systems but in return they had razed 3 of mine.
This is when my human allies for no reason whatsoever called me scum and declared war ! i was soon framed against the saakra aswell and ive given up on this game as the AI is just razing whatever planet is undefended

going to have to load up mid way or start again ....

vmxa1 · July 10, 2003, 17:57

They had 1 against your 5 and they won? Wow, the plasma cannon is a strong weapon, but not the reason they won, I would venture.
Do you have the game still to post? If so pop up the one before the fight and the earliest one.
I would image that they had a tech lead and the miniturization is what allowed to do better. Did you have reinforced hulls or heavy armor and did they?
I guess I should check that you are playing patch 1.31.
If you are playing 1.2, then forget what I said about plasma cannons, at that version they are the best and you must get them ASAP.
Rule number one to me is no undefend planets if there is any race that could reach that planet. If so it must have ships sitting on it or planetary defenses. I have to use ships until I get a star bases as I will not have planetary missile bases.
A number of factors come into play as to why they may come after you, primary is if they see you as weak. This means you need ships to make them behave.

Lazerus · July 11, 2003, 10:29

Well around 9/10 of my colonies had star bases (also had tach comm, the tech that gives you +1 points) and i was always producing ships until my command points were at -30 and i needed other bases to trade goods to stop my cash going too negative, the only dents came when a large fleet got massacred so i don't think it was my small amount of ships.

im playing 1.2, what does 1.31 entail and is it needed badly ?
Yes i had reinforced hulls, its a definate feature of all my ships now thanks to the amount of battles its won me, they had a battle scanner and ecm, no heavy or reinforced hulls.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Laz...letactical.zip

i haven't got the file where my 5 battleships were lost but heres a file where theres :
Mrrshan - 1 battleship,1 cruiser, 1 frigate
My fleet - 4 battleships, 1 fairly weak cruiser, star base, planetary missile base (i think a destroyer aswell)

and i get slaughtered, i remember i stopped his fleet by luck the first time as i managed to kamikaze my last battleship into his and just kill it (rather heroic or what)

The other save is just before i kill the silicoids.

About the undefended planets i do get star bases/missile+fighter garrisons at nearly all of them but still unless i send my main fleet there then the AI simply walks over them.

Whoha · July 11, 2003, 10:45

Alright heres the problem, you are going with normal beam weapons(not heavy mount) with only an electronic computer, you are not going to hit anything with that setup(alot of the guns are just missing). You need to put battlescanners and go with heavy mount guns(or just stick with missiles, though missiles are probably obsolete at this point in the game). But you need to trade,steal,research, or conquer a better targeting computer. Also early on in the game, throw up a space academy and keep your ships camped out over that system so they get experience.

the Cats on the other hand, have +50 ship offense pick, warlord so higher level crews,battlescanners, so they are hitting you.

Whoha · July 11, 2003, 10:54

Also you should have gone with radiation shields rather than class 3 shields, shields this early are very poor at blocking damage, and the extra productivity you can get out of those ultra rich radiated worlds you have far outweighs any benefit you are getting from the shields.

Whoha · July 11, 2003, 11:04

also, assign your combat leaders, the pilot guy and the combat guy to your attack fleet, it looks like the easiest way for you to take out a starbase is to have enough ships to rush up to it and board it, and you need the combat leader to do that.

Lazerus · July 11, 2003, 12:09

Well i finished off the silicoid as before, i managed to research plasma cannons before the alkari hit me again, slaughtered them no problem. I haven't bothered going for the gnolams last planet. The Saakra and Humans have called me scum and declared war however this time the heavy mounted plasma cannons are really making a difference

ive booted the humans out of the bottom half of the map and have just razed Sol !

Researching neutronium armour right now as that will make a nice bonus with the tripling effect and im pumping out ships like crazy with the hvy cannons.
Mrrshan haven't started yet and im hoping to have killed the humans and gnolam atleast before they do mention anything and then I'm going to enjoy watching them die

Lazerus · July 11, 2003, 12:11

Just checked your tip about the computers and nobody else has a better one ! so guess thats next for the research.

Whoha · July 11, 2003, 13:02

well, if you have battlescanners,heavy mounts, and veteran/elite crews(build space academies at your sites building ships), you can hold off on computer research(the other buildings in the comp line are better and if antaran attacks are on those ships all have the best computers, if you can capture and scrap one, and they also have the best jammers, fighter bays, and other techs you can grab from them which is why I go for combat tech any chance I can)

Also, take orion as soon as you feel you can, you get 4 orion/antaran techs, and a couple of other techs that it does not tell you about(as well as an ultra rich/huge/gaia).

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 13:03

Yes I always use HV on beams (well there a few case were you would not) and stay out of reach. The plasma cannons lose effectiveness at ranges.
I make a Space Acad on planets that will make ships, it is important.
I look for leaders to hire that have boost to pilots and fighters and latter ground combat. Keep them in the best ships and in a fleet. If they have their ship destroyed, they need a ship to transfer to or they will be lost.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 13:15

Battle scanner are a must right along with Battle pods. These are the first things you need for a beam ship. You can omit the scanner if it is a missile ship.
The raditation shields is one of the hardest choices for me. To research it or shields. I tend to evalutate my empire to decide. If I have a lot of planets that are radiated and I do not have good food production or the planets may become blockaged, I will go for Rad. This lets me get food started. I will not have Class I shields most of the time, so it is hard to skip Class III as well, but I have done it many times.
One other benefit of the Rad shield is that it makes it impossible for the early beaming ships to bust the planet.
The space academy provides veteran crew instead of green one to start. This is very useful for combat and you will get to elite status sooner. See teh ships with gold stars on them in the tactical screen. That denotes the status of teh crews. The super crews can only be gotten by the Warlord type racial traits.
If you were to have a save from 3500.0 you could replay the game with the changes mentioned and see how much more effective the ships will be in combat.
I sometimes will save off to a folder the start of the game and some key junctures so I can replay with a different tactic to see what works.

Lazerus · July 11, 2003, 13:32

Gnolams squished, humans beaten to 1 planet in the corner and saakra running away like babies

The mrrshan have seen sense this time and are just sitting there, i might just go and smack them one so i can then bring 3 extra fleets over to my western front for when i get some fuel cells big enough to get my across this annoying dark nebula (just noticed shields dont work when i fight in there? )

Quite a few of my ships now have 2 stars with all the combat they've been in. Also i normally trade for that survival pods tech that lets leaders survive if their ship is destroyed.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 14:26

Ok here is my take on the final patch (131).
In 1.2 you had some problems with over powered weapons, namely Gyro and Plasma Cannons. This was addressed by making Plasma Cannon require more space.
Creative pick was too cheap at 6 picks and was changed to 8 picks.
Initivtive was changed and can be enabled to allow ships to go in order of their inititive.
The other problem was that the Ai was inclined to surrender too easily and pay off with systems at the drop of a hat. This is some what better, but it is still a bit easy to get them to cough up a system. I do not use that exploit any longer and restrict myself to 5% tribute from no more than 2 races, in fact I tend to play as repulsive so I can not demand anything.
I used to take my two starting BB at normal tech and upgrade them and them I could demand a system without ever attacking. In 1.2 they often would declare war on me and no one would attack either and then they would offer a system for peace. How bad is that?
I regard 1.2 as too easy a version to play.
Some bugs were fixed as well.

Lazerus · July 11, 2003, 15:17

.... im still awaiting my first AI to surrender after going through all difficulty levels beating them to a pulp, a few have given me 5% tribute when i've demaded it but thats mainly because i moved a large fleet to their home system and was going to kill them next turn.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 18:02

I am sorry I was not clear on that point. They do not surrender to you, but rather to other AI's.
You see less of it at impossible and more at Hard.
If they do not give you system that you demand, you just are not percieved as that strong ot you ask for system that they will never give you.
I will often make my third BB after a refit and find a system with 1 planet that is not very well developed and demand it and they will cough it up.
I want it to increase my range and to make myself seem stronger to the AI.

Whoha · July 11, 2003, 22:02

people have said in the mooniac faq that if another race is genociding them, and you are charasmatic, that the race that is being wiped out will surrender to you. I can't recall a race surrendering to me in impossible(and it really pisses me off when a lesser race surrenders to one of the powerful ai that I have to leave alone for the time being

)

vmxa1 · July 12, 2003, 00:08

I can not recall the AI surrendering to me at any level and I could not tell you how many hundreds of games I have played. 99% at either hard or impossible.
If it ever did happen, I have forgotten it.

Lazerus · July 18, 2003, 11:04

How useful is the phasing cloak as compared to class X shields ?
Also i remember somebody talking about the 'phasing cloak cheese' whats the deal with this ?

vmxa1 · July 18, 2003, 13:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Lazerus
How useful is the phasing cloak as compared to class X shields ?
Also i remember somebody talking about the 'phasing cloak cheese' whats the deal with this ?

If you use the cloak and the Time Warp properly you can prevnt the AI from getting in a turn and eventually wipe out the fleet.
I do not use either of these devices. It can be a laugh, but there is no real need.

In each round,
_________________________________________
You start enemy start

Turn 1: you Turn 1: enemy
Turn 2: enemy Turn 2: you
---- ----
Turn 3: you Turn 3: you
----
go back to turn 1 go back to turn 1
_________________________________________

After both sides have taken a turn, the final turn (3rd turn) goes to the ships that have a time warp facilitator on. Know your turns so that you can shut off all your un-used weapons and allow the ship to recloak.

If you are attacking first, SKIP THE TURN!!! Let the enemy go first. If the ultimate ship is the only ship standing up against the enemy, then when you skip your turn, the enemy will have nothing to shoot at because you have NOT decloaked yet. THEN you attack, and the Phasing Cloak and T.W.F combo will work. And if the enemy attacks first, then all is well, as long as your ships in that fight are cloaked.

If you do it right, you can sustain up to 10 rounds undiscovered, 10 turns to do whatever you want. Unless the enemy runs before they're all destroyed.

Whoha · July 18, 2003, 21:07

I think something is wrong with the phasing cloak, when I use it with the twf it never turns down to a normal cloak(and i've had 1 battleship with 2 death rays and the twf/phase cloak combo vs 100 ships,yea that takes a little longer then 10 turns...), but when ive seen the ai use it alone it seems to work as advertised.

Also, how does the history graph for ships work, total ship cost?(another embarrassing situation, I was doing the junk race, -1/2 food/-1 prod/-1 sci/cyb/poor hw, on tutor small galaxy, and I had 3 battleships that were empty except for scout labs for the research bonus, and the Antarans kept raiding me so much,despite the fact that the ai had 8 systems to my 4 then 3 then 2 then 1,that I lost that game

).

vmxa1 · July 18, 2003, 21:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Whoha
I think something is wrong with the phasing cloak, when I use it with the twf it never turns down to a normal cloak(and i've had 1 battleship with 2 death rays and the twf/phase cloak combo vs 100 ships,yea that takes a little longer then 10 turns...), but when ive seen the ai use it alone it seems to work as advertised.

Here is the change for 1.3 or higher:

Extra combat turns given by the Time Warp Facilitator will be given
after the opponent has taken a turn.

1st player: normal turn
2nd player: normal turn
1st player: extra turn
2nd player: extra turn

I am not sure what you mean by not become a normal cloak. A cloaked ship has 20% chance to be hit by BEAMS. Missiles ignore the cloak. The Phased Cloak last up to ten turns and then is turn off. So what happened that refutes that?

vmxa1 · July 18, 2003, 21:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Whoha

Also, how does the history graph for ships work, total ship cost?(another embarrassing situation, I was doing the junk race, -1/2 food/-1 prod/-1 sci/cyb/poor hw, on tutor small galaxy, and I had 3 battleships that were empty except for scout labs for the research bonus, and the Antarans kept raiding me so much,despite the fact that the ai had 8 systems to my 4 then 3 then 2 then 1,that I lost that game

).

When you say history graph for ships what are you looking at? I don't have the game availbe on this machine. It seems it no longer works on my XP PRO. I suspect it is due to the video card and drivers. I can get it to come up using the DOS version, but when I stop my desktop is covered in some wierd pattern.
I am unable to dial down to 640x480, the lowest the dispaly settign will go is 800.
Moo2 needs 256 color and 640.
Lucky I have a P4 1.7 GH backup with ME, but it has no Web access.

Whoha · July 18, 2003, 23:30

erm, the phase cloak goes down to a normal cloak after 10 turns doesn't it(thats what it says in the description)? well anyway it stays on and as a phasing cloak whenever I pair it with the twf.

and info button,history graph,fleet. From the graph it gives a fairly large number, that looks like total cost.

vmxa1 · July 19, 2003, 01:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Whoha
erm, the phase cloak goes down to a normal cloak after 10 turns doesn't it(thats what it says in the description)? well anyway it stays on and as a phasing cloak whenever I pair it with the twf.

and info button,history graph,fleet. From the graph it gives a fairly large number, that looks like total cost.

The Phase Cloak will stop the AI from detecting you for up to ten turns. Once you uncloak or the 10 turns passes, it will not stop them from seeing you. So if you uncloak and shoot and then recloak, it should work as it did efore. That is no one can detect you for up to 10 turns. What is happening that makes you thing it is a problem?
Ah that thing. I never paid any attention to it and have no doc, so anything I said would be a guess.
Maybe I will fire up the game tomorrow and see if it makes any sense.

Whoha · July 19, 2003, 11:09

no, i mean that I have had battles that have lasted far longer then 10 turns, and the phasing cloak has not failed/expired/whatever (with the twf/phase cloak combo), so my ships remained undetected.

vmxa1 · July 19, 2003, 12:08

Hum, post a save for that. I can't say I have hear of the problem.

vmxa1 · July 19, 2003, 12:14

BTW I looked at the Hist graph a bit today. It is just whacking and I do not understand it.
My test was me and 1 other. Start at normal to get 2 scouts and colony.
Used colony and built a friegher and nothing else.
The AI made 2 courier sized ships and then 2 transports.
The grahp shows me climbing. Later I passed the AI, with out making a single new ship? Plus the graph climbed from 1000 to 2000? I do not know what it means. I did not even refit or make a starbase on the other planet. I did not make any colony bases or anything.

Whoha · July 19, 2003, 12:38

dont have a save handy, its been a while since i've used the twf/phase cloak combo