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Old May 28, 2003, 13:07   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
I will buy it when it drops to $20
I will buy it when they fix PTW for us folk outside the USA

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Old May 28, 2003, 13:12   #242
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Though if the trebuchet is a UU, methinks maybe Charlemagne and the Franks?
The French (Franks) are already in CivIII. It could be a Byzantine UU. Or maybe an upgrade from the catapult.
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Old May 28, 2003, 14:53   #243
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If it was a UU, the screenshot probably would say "___" Trebuchet

I think it is a regular unit (like the Med Inf was in PTW). It is probably available with Invention
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Old May 28, 2003, 15:20   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
If it was a UU, the screenshot probably would say "___" Trebuchet

I think it is a regular unit (like the Med Inf was in PTW). It is probably available with Invention
hi ,

and what about the catapult then , .....



have a nice day
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Old May 28, 2003, 16:51   #245
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hi ,

and what about the catapult then , .....
But that's available way back with Mathematics. There's lots of room for an upgrade between then and Metallurgy, when the Cannon appears.
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Old May 28, 2003, 17:19   #246
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But that's available way back with Mathematics. There's lots of room for an upgrade between then and Metallurgy, when the Cannon appears.

hi ,

, ....... maybe its an UU for a civ instead of a catapult , ......

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Old May 28, 2003, 18:44   #247
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But the Trebuchet was a Medieval invention.

It was used a lot more than catipults were

I think it is 0.0.1 6.1.1 Artillery

There really aren't any possible civs that could have it as a UU.
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Old May 29, 2003, 03:10   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
But the Trebuchet was a Medieval invention.

It was used a lot more than catipults were

I think it is 0.0.1 6.1.1 Artillery

There really aren't any possible civs that could have it as a UU.
it would be cool if it had some kind of uniqueness and didn't make catapult obsolete. so both could be used effectively in different situations


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Old May 29, 2003, 09:09   #249
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It could have a bombard of 4.2.1 (bombard, range, firepower), but I think the Trebuchet made catapults less useful in real life anyway
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Old May 29, 2003, 10:55   #250
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If Medieval Total War is considered realistic enough when it comes to medieval warfare, catapults were indeed much less useful than the trebuchet, but had a tactical use thanks to thei mobility higher than the trebuchet. They could take on moving troops with more ease. They were obsolete in siege warfare though.

I don't know how to show this one tactical advantage of the catapult could be implemented in Civ3. Maybe the Trebuchet would be more destructive towards buildings, but less towards units ?

I think it is more likely to see the trebuchet as an early medieval replacement for the catapult. 6.1.1 seems the most likely
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Old May 29, 2003, 12:08   #251
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They did mention something about "tear down walls" with the Trebuchet (or something like that)

But I think that was just done to sound cool
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Old May 29, 2003, 15:10   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
It could have a bombard of 4.2.1 (bombard, range, firepower), but I think the Trebuchet made catapults less useful in real life anyway
Since Cannons only have a range of 1, it's rather doubtful the Trebuchet will have 2. The only difference will probably be the bombard strength. There's lots of room between Catapults and Cannon in that regard. In my own mod, I've added an upgrade at Gunpowder that's been working quite nicely.
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Old May 29, 2003, 16:05   #253
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That's what I think

I wonder how much use they will have they have about a 66% of defeating Pikemen, 75% chance of Defeating Spearmen

If they come with Engeneering, they will have a long life. If they come with Invention, it won't be long before Gunpowder is invented (60% chance)

For reference, Catapults have around 66% against Spears. Cannons have 66% against Musketmen. So 66% against Pikes seems logical
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Old May 29, 2003, 19:49   #254
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Troytheface: do you think you could beat Deep Blue in chess? AI can be made better.
Sorry the drudge this up from way back, but I think its worth pointing out that there are two fundamental differences in chess and civ3.

1) Complexity: most chess programs work by literally thinking ahead and analyzing every possible move they and the components can make many moves ahead and picking the one with the best outcome for the ai player. (there are tricks of course, mostly dealing with pruning obviously bad choices from the search tree) This can't be done in civ3, because there are more possible moves to make on any given turn, and the further into the future the ai tries to think the more choices it has to analyze. Ie) in chess you never have more than 16 pieces which can be moved, and there are only 64 squares on the board. In civ3 you could potentially have hundreds of pieces to move to thousands of squares, and that isn't even taking into account city production, etc.

2) Uncertainty. In chess the ai knows what the result of a move will be. A captured unit is always captured if you move onto it, etc. In civ3 you don't know because the results are random. Which adds even more to the complexity, now the ai not only has to consider one result for a move, but it has to consider all results and weight them according to the liklihood of occurence.

In short, you are comparing apples and oranges. Civ's ai does not and *cannot* function in the same way as champion chess playing programs.

Not to say there can't be improvement in the ai of course, its just not fair to point at a relatively simple game and say civ3's ai is not as good in comparison. It'd be like saying your dodge can haul a u-haul, so by the same logic it's the manufacturer's fault if it can't haul a 50 ton trailer.
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Old May 29, 2003, 22:20   #255
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Originally posted by Spiffor
I think it is more likely to see the trebuchet as an early medieval replacement for the catapult. 6.1.1 seems the most likely
These were my thoughts exactly. 6.1.1 seems on the mark given the historical comparison of the weapons.
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Old May 30, 2003, 00:13   #256
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I wonder what the UUs will be for the new civs? My guesses.

Inca: Sun Warrior (inproved Swordsman) 3.2.2

Maya: Plumed Archer (improved Longbowman) 4.1.2

Byzantines: Cataphract (improved Horsman) 3.2.2 +20 production cost

Hebrews: Slinger (improved Archer) 3.1.1

any Ideas for other civs?
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Old May 30, 2003, 02:52   #257
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For the Mayans, based on the graphics released, it is most likely that the UU would be a javelin thrower because Mayans did not have very good archers. It was very strange that the Mayans had a plumed archer as their UU in Age of Empires. Their javelineers and atl-atl slings were much more superior.
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Old May 30, 2003, 10:28   #258
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Quote:
Originally posted by Odin
I wonder what the UUs will be for the new civs? My guesses.

Inca: Sun Warrior (inproved Swordsman) 3.2.2
They have a picture of an Incan Scout

Quote:
Maya: Plumed Archer (improved Longbowman) 4.1.2
They have a picture of a Javeliner

Quote:
Byzantines: Cataphract (improved Horsman) 3.2.2 +20 production cost
Too similar to Celtic Swordsman.

Byzantine may not be in the game

Quote:
Hebrews: Slinger (improved Archer) 3.1.1
Its likely that the Mayans will have this for their Archer

Quote:
any Ideas for other civs?
Sumerians will have an Endiku Warrior, a fictional unit because Firaxis couldn't think of anything better. My guess is it is 2.1.1 Warrior

I have no idea about the Hittites
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Old May 30, 2003, 18:57   #259
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I have no idea about the Hittites
Well, they were the first to use chariots in Battle, i'm thinking of a 1.1.3 chariot.
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Old May 31, 2003, 03:17   #260
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This new expansion bugs me to some degree...

Personally, I think Firaxis has shown that it doesn't have the right stuff. Of course, it's not as bad as Activision and their little disaster, Call to Power, but it's still bad.

I like Civ 3. Don't get me wrong. I would rather play it than Civ 2, but I think it was far from what we hoped it would be. I remember a year before Civilization came out, suggestions were streaming in every day here at the forums. The game designers were talking one-on-one with the fans, and it seemed like they were really listening to us.

Now, some people had some far out ideas, but for the most part, the people generally wanted to see the same things.

* Improved scenario-editing ability, events scripting.
* More complex diplomacy (meaning like the diplomacy screen)
* Improved graphics
* Better economy (resources and such)

And there were certain things, like Multiplayer, that Civ 2 featured that it was assumed would be included.

And they did make some progress.... the Civ III editor opened up a lot of stuff to the people that in Civ 2 was untouchable with regards to buildings and units.

The graphics were definitely better.

And the diplomacy options were better. We got to declare war when we wanted to. Cities could be traded. There was a lot more flexibility with regards to diplomacy and trading...

and there was resources.

But it didn't go nearly far enough. The game, for the most part, seemed almost left incomplete. Hell, there are graphics in Civ 3 for units that aren't even there. There was ruins graphics before the ruins in PtW were even available. It looked more like a beta test than the real game.

Perhaps the two biggest hits: no scenario-editing abilities, and no multiplayer! How could they not have included these things? They knew we wanted to see them in the game!

Why were they left out? I've heard people argue "Well, they shouldn't listen to the demands of the consumers. They were making the game they wanted."

We're not talking about dramatic differences... they could still make the game the way they wanted to and give us what we wanted. Events scripting, scenario abilities, and more modding options could only expand the possibilities, not constrict them... and multiplayer is a must!

It was almost like they had gone back to the original Civ2, which didn't have any of these options, and were going through all of the same mile stones... why? It makes no sense.

Then there was Play the World, which was in many ways just tinsel. The fundamental changes that were needed were ignored so that they could focus on decoration: new civs, new units, new improvements. The scenario editor, true, was somewhat better, and the multiplayer, as many of us know, was a joke!

Again, it let it seem like they'd just stopped whatever it was they were doing and said "OK, let's sell this!" I mean, they included the new animations for Medieval Japan and World War II (some of which were nice) and they couldn't even make pedia icons for them... shameful!

I remember when the programmers would come and talk in the chats about what they were doing with the expansion pack. Most of the conversation was about what WASN'T going to be included, not what was... We were left guessing at what civs and features could be expecting. Interaction between the fans and the programmers dried up. It wasn't a dialogue anymore, they were dictating the terms of the expansion pack to us.

And now there's this new expansion pack coming out... that promises natural disasters. Fine. Natural disasters sound cool, but why are they working on such cosmetic things when they haven't even addressed the old problems? It's very troubling to me... as has been said before, they have the oppurtunity to redeem themselves, but I don't see any sign that this is going to happen. It's like they're bleeding us, stretching this out as long as they can to maximize profits... I don't know if this is the intention, but it is certainly the result. An expansion pack is supposed to be a continuation, an augmentation, but these are almost like corrections, apologies.

I'll have to think long and hard about whether I'm going to buy this expansion. If they make some effort to turn things around and it shows, then I'll buy it. If on the other hand its just a bunch of cosmetic changes that modders could do on their own, then forget it!
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Old May 31, 2003, 09:15   #261
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Dom Pedro :

Civ3 had a bad omen from the beginning on, as it had to be rushed despite half of the team left. Expansions look like apologies of the original release, with its many lackings, true. But I think PtW has adressed many of them (especially now that it nears being bug-free), and the biggest problem Firaxis will have to correct in Conquests will be the scenario/events editor, the turn-replay in multiplayer games, and unit-trading .

I think Civ3 will be a complete product with Conquests, and future expansions (if they exist) will indeed expand the game. Howver, I don't hold my breath, as I assume the next step in fall 2004 is the release of a gold edition with Civ3 + expansions + all patches + a "best of net" CD.
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Old May 31, 2003, 09:15   #262
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DP2, part of the problem Firaxis had on Civ3 was the fact that most of their Civ3 development team quit to form a new company halfway through the development. Firaxis had to hire a bunch of new people to pick up the pieces. They still had a schedule to make if they wanted to be paid by Infogrames.

The other thing to be aware of is the fact that Firaxis is not in total control of the Civ line. Atari is. They pretty much own all the rights to it. If Atari 'suggests' that a certain feature should be deferred to a later expansion, it most likely will. Firaxis is under the time, money, and (hopefully, to a lesser extent) creative constraints given from their publishers.

Will this expansion be everything that everyone wants? Of course not, how could it be? A feature that I think would be wonderful, you may hate. Will I be happy with it and think it'll be worth the price when it comes out (probably be able to pick it up for $20 at Best Buy within 2 weeks of release)? Most likely.

BTW, Ritual Sacrifice is a cool feature
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Old May 31, 2003, 15:32   #263
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Firaxis was trying to make a good game, but Infrogreed goes $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and gives Firaxis the finger.
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Old June 1, 2003, 18:31   #264
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Dom Pedro :

Civ3 had a bad omen from the beginning on, as it had to be rushed despite half of the team left. Expansions look like apologies of the original release, with its many lackings, true. But I think PtW has adressed many of them (especially now that it nears being bug-free),



In whose universe is PTW "bug-free"?

Not outside USA.

I feel really sorry for them, fancy having all our money for that long and still having to work on fixing the bugs.

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Old June 1, 2003, 19:11   #265
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The_Falco, it could be worse. They could have your money and not be working on fixing bugs.
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Old June 2, 2003, 09:44   #266
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Dom Pedro :

But I think PtW has adressed many of them (especially now that it nears being bug-free),
Bug free

see links in sig below
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Old June 2, 2003, 14:01   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
They did mention something about "tear down walls" with the Trebuchet (or something like that)

But I think that was just done to sound cool
hi ,

when going over files in ptw , trebuchet is allready inthere , ...... the name is , .....

have a nice day
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Old June 2, 2003, 15:14   #268
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Originally posted by panag


hi ,

when going over files in ptw , trebuchet is allready inthere , ...... the name is , .....

have a nice day
what?


cheer
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Old June 2, 2003, 16:36   #269
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I think he said the name is listed in the files.

SpencerH, why don't you give your game to me?
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Old June 2, 2003, 16:39   #270
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Odin,

The Hittites used chariots, yes, but they didn't have horses. They used small donkeys, one to a chariot, to drive a single-man chariot. Maybe it is a chariot without resources?
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