Who Shot Mohammed al-Dura? (long)

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
If NK is bad, would that make Israel good?

Not at all. I was mirely pointing out that your accussation the evil/bad/naughty (insert derogitory phrase here) US can hardly be singled out for sticking up for its friends. You singled the US out like some how it's actions weren't in line with what ever other nation on earth does.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Eli


Instead it allows countries like Egypt and Syria to start wars of annihilation...

Syria or Egypt has been not exactly friendly but at least neutral since 1973 IIRC.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre


I would definately call stone throwers terrorists. There are plnty of these in Sweden too. Anyone remember the EU meeting in Gothenbourg 2001? And my UN buddie got a big stone right into his lap through the closed car window in Hebron. But he considers the IDF worse. A stone is preferred to a heavy MG bullet 8 days of the week.

Great. I guess you wont protest if Israel sends half of the Pal kids to detentions camps because they are terrorists.

[Chemical Ollie]

There is a difference between terrorist and TERRORISTS. Some are just annoying, while others are deadly.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
There is a difference between terrorist and TERRORISTS. Some are just annoying, while others are deadly.

Then the vast vast vast majority of the attacks done by settlers are just annoying and one can safely say that major Israeli actions are done only by the IDF and therefore ordered from above, so they can be stopped as soon as terror threats stop.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Not at all. I was mirely pointing out that your accussation the evil/bad/naughty (insert derogitory phrase here) US can hardly be singled out for sticking up for its friends. You singled the US out like some how it's actions weren't in line with what ever other nation on earth does.

1) What good did Israel do that made them your friends?

2) I used US soldiers as an example of "not really bad guys, but somewhat thoughtless" while I referred to IDF as "thoughtless, not caring about other nations citizens at all" to get it more straight

Are you saying every other nation on earth are firing a heavy machine gun blindly in 360 degrees whenever fired upon (which is my buddies literal description of IDF)? At least Swedish UN soldiers are not. They are trained to try to distinguish between friend, foe and neutral before pulling the trigger.

[Eli]

1) We sided with them during the cold war, while the Arabs sided with the Soviets.

2) Read one of my above posts. The UN soldiers are all nice and humane, but they dont do ****.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
1) What good did Israel do that made them your friends?

First, of all they are the only real democracy in the middleeast unlike every single last one of the Arab states. Second, we feel the Israelis can be trusted to keep their word (again unlike just about everyone of the Arab states). Third, we feel the Israelis are far, far more likely to keep the rule of law over the world's holy sites compared to the alternative. Lastly, for various reasons (some religious some just ideological) most Americans think it is just that the Jews should have their country back and so we wish to help them keep their state.

Are you saying every other nation on earth are firing a heavy machine gun blindly in 360 degrees whenever fired upon (which is my buddies literal description of IDF)? At least Swedish UN soldiers are not. They are trained to try to distinguish between friend, foe and neutral before pulling the trigger.

Not at all. A soldier has a duty, where it is reasonable, to try to single out targets; they also have a right to do what ever is necessary to defend his life or his fellow soldiers lives. The trade off is that if one of those two rights is carried to an extreme then the other will suffer.

I've never been on the blue line like your friend has but I have been a soldier in a hostile fire zone and I can tell you people get jumpy. Now, realize that the Arab scum hide themselves in crowds and dress as civilians. In those circumstances if someone I don't know is running at my position then I'm going to order him twice to get down on the ground, and if he doesn't comply and keeps on running towards me, then I'm going to shot him. I will not risk him being a suicide bomber or a gunman.

It's war and unfortunately in war that is the way it goes. Those people who think other wise are deluded.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Jaakko


a) Infantry support weapons might well be of a different calibre.

b) I seem to distinctly recall Israel arming the Palestinian security forces at some point, with US-made weapons.

I'm just interested in getting the facts straight.

Assuming the wounds were not all fully penetrating, recovery of the actual rounds that hit Mohammed would allow for verification of whether it's 7.62 x 39 NATO or 7.62 x 39 WP issue ammo. They're not the same, and not interchangeable.

[Chemical Ollie]

I might reply more on this topic another day. But more on the thread topic - the incident discussed was just one of 100's of kids killed recently. Think about that.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Kids throwing rocks in front of non-kids throwing copper jacketed lead is in a different category from a kid pinned down in a crossfire and caught on film.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Kids throwing rocks in front of non-kids throwing copper jacketed lead is in a different category from a kid pinned down in a crossfire and caught on film.

You really have to think a while to realise that the above reply is 100% neutral. Or I'm just slow this late at night.

But what says they are kids and non-kids? 16 and 19 yo are both kids to me... But Ok the kid in question were just 10 IIRC.

[TCO]

Well what about the Liberty? I could see Israeli's lying. They are a besieged country and will do what they need to do...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre


You really have to think a while to realise that the above reply is 100% neutral. Or I'm just slow this late at night.

But what says they are kids and non-kids? 16 and 19 yo are both kids to me... But Ok the kid in question were just 10 IIRC.

A sad fact of life in ME war zones is that kids on both sides grow up real fast.

[Panag]

hi ,

Siro , a german , reporter made a great docu about it

oh and btw , did ever anyone tought of running the so called original tape in slow motion , .....

the large stone next to the kid and his father seems to move around as the tape rolls on , ..... ( on the oil drum )

the original was moved , never to be found , .....

have a nice day

edit ; typo

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
- Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz...

That's absolutely disgusting. I side with the Palestinians against Israel, but I would have been part of the crowd chasing your buddy.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Oerdin


First, of all they are the only real democracy in the middleeast unlike every single last one of the Arab states. Second, we feel the Israelis can be trusted to keep their word (again unlike just about everyone of the Arab states). Third, we feel the Israelis are far, far more likely to keep the rule of law over the world's holy sites compared to the alternative. Lastly, for various reasons (some religious some just ideological) most Americans think it is just that the Jews should have their country back and so we wish to help them keep their state.

Wow those reasons suck IMO.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
...
The UN grunts got some kind of revenge for the casualties later that year, They were on leave in Tel Aviv and passed a group of people standing in line outside a disco. A soldier from Norway walked straight towards the line, pointed at the the front guy and started to count:

- Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz, Arbeit, Gaz...

Then they had to run for it. Fast. Somehow they managed to escape from the outraged crowd.

I admit it was tasteless of them to make holocost references as a joke, (IIRC, that could get you 5 years prison in Israel) but put into perspective I get the point. The Israelis killed their friends after all.

That's it.

As of now, you are the first, and only person on my ignore list.

[Az]

Wow, and I thought the Scandinavians were just pompous, self-righteous bastards. Now I know they're also a bunch of heartless morons.

I hope your friend ends up in a bodybag, real soon.

Just another fricking example why we shouldn't trust the UN.

[Ming]

Come on folks... CHILL...

[Sirotnikov]

Well what about the Liberty? I could see Israeli's lying. They are a besieged country and will do what they need to do...

I remember we talked about it before and you were shocked when I told you that as a very extreme scenario, it is concievable that Israel would have intentionally targetted the ship.

But I don't think that it is what happenned. And there's a whole debate we once had, and which still continues on the internet.

You should be so enraged though. Eventually when the wills of two brothers are at conflict, each acts according to his self interest.

I am for instance very angry at the US treatment of Israel during the first gulf war. I think it was very un-ally like and actually quite hostile. But I respect America's reasons and udnerstand that they did what they thought best.

The point is however, that no matter what happenned, the US state department decided that Israel is still America's strongest ally in the Middle East.

[Az]

The USA also wanted to invade Israel in 56', and let us hanging for weeks during 67', putting us in dire straits, constantly spied on us. Just as we spied on them, and interfered with their plans in north-eastern Africa.

Ming, sorry, I just wanted to be there.

[Panag]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Assuming the wounds were not all fully penetrating, recovery of the actual rounds that hit Mohammed would allow for verification of whether it's 7.62 x 39 NATO or 7.62 x 39 WP issue ammo. They're not the same, and not interchangeable.

hi ,

the PA did not allow for the body to get a proper medical by outsiders , .....

and there lays the proof , .....

aldo they counter addict ( the two doctors in the origianl hospital tape ) each other the bullets angle was way to high to have come from the IDF post , .....

btw , take a real good look at the video tapes from the news , ..... at one point its clear that the shots are fired from the side , .... no idf outpost there , ...

have a nice day

Olaf , we did not kill anyone on purpose , .....

letting mortar crews set up for several days next to your camp can result in return fire , ......

[Panag]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Voting Likud is a hostile act.

hi ,

no its a democratical right , ......

have a nice day

[Sirotnikov]

Ming, while obviously Olaf didn't do anything wrong himself, in this thread or otherwise, the fact that he somehow morally justifies or supports his friends actions, is too much for me.

I chose not to state it then, but my view of his buddy and to a lesser extent, of the society he grew up in, is very similar to Azazels'.

I'm not condoning flaming. I just think any reasonable person can understand the reaction a normal person should have to what Olaf's friend did there. And since Olaf himself didn't have that reaction, and even morally equated it with supposed Israeli actions, it's way above my ability to handle such a position.

My only conclusion from this is, that nothing has changed in Europe.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
The USA also wanted to invade Israel in 56', and let us hanging for weeks during 67', putting us in dire straits, constantly spied on us. Just as we spied on them, and interfered with their plans in north-eastern Africa.

Ming, sorry, I just wanted to be there.

There are some of us still, Azazel, who get mad at America actions that treat Israel unfairly. But it is clear that at some point in time, perhaps after the Liberty incident, America has come to aid of Israel both diplomatically and militarily.

As to the Gulf War I, it was our thinking at the time that should Israel intervene it would blow of the Coalition. What would have happened, for example, if Saudi Arabia asked us to leave?

Assuming American concerns to be valid, and I think they were, how did it the United States treat Israel unfairly?

[Az]

"unfairly" it's a wrong word, Ned. Countries, and this includes the US, do things not because they're fair, or unfair, but because it suits their interests. "Fair" doesn't come into play.

[Ned]

Azazel, We asked Israel to be patient. Israel was patient; and that patience has now paid off. America owes Israel is thanks.

[Eli]

Thanks shmanks. Show us the money.

[Az]

Ned, much as Eli said, sadly, as much as we in Israel like you, and you like us, the governments don't care about this stuff.