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Old May 18, 2003, 00:10   #421
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If the whole Western world were for the Iraqi war, it would be scary (for the rest of the world). Personally I would be scared, as I was during the Kosovo operation. France's opposition helped to balance perception of the West as a whole (and perception is all that counts in this life! ). So, Americans, you should in fact be grateful to France: you did what you had to do, France did what she had to do, everyone played his role for the benefit of the CAUSE (which cause is that is a matter of separate discussion ). You should try to understand one simple thing: France's opposition is a lesser evil as compared to what you would have if the whole West ardently supported that war.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:10   #422
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Originally posted by Spiffor

Care to show me ONE antiamerican (I'm not talking about anti-Bush) article in Le Monde ? Just one ?
Oh, please, the whole paper oozes anti-americanism. As does the country itself. No serious person would even debate it.
The only real question is how to deal with it, and the consequences.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:13   #423
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I happen to read Le Monde quite frequently, I think of myself as a serious person, and I argue it.

If Le Monde oozes of antiamericanism, I suppose you'd have no trouble at all finding some antiamerican article, even in today's issue ?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:20   #424
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Oh, and for the record, here is the coverage of this issue in the anti-American rag named Le Monde. Sorry if I don't translate it today, I'm too tired for that
But I have no doubt someone as used to Le Monde as Lonewolf will have no trouble finding some antiamericanism oozing from it.

Quote:
Paris s'élève contre une "campagne de désinformation" dans la presse américaine
LE MONDE | 16.05.03 | 13h39 • MIS A JOUR LE 16.05.03 | 14h03
L'ambassadeur français aux Etats-Unis adresse aux autorités de Washington une lettre réfutant les accusations sur les relations de la France avec Saddam Hussein.

Washington de notre correspondant

Le gouvernement français estime que la France est la cible d'une "campagne de désinformation" dans les médias américains. Jean-David Levitte, ambassadeur à Washington, a envoyé une lettre, à ce sujet, jeudi 15 mai, à la Maison Blanche, au département d'Etat, au Pentagone, à des parlementaires et aux rédactions de plusieurs journaux et chaînes de télévision.

A Paris, une porte-parole du ministère des affaires étrangères, Marie Masdupuy, a indiqué que les diplomates français aux Etats-Unis ont été invités à "surveiller les médias" pour y relever les signes de cette désinformation.

Dans sa lettre, l'ambassadeur écrit que ces articles "s'appuient tous sur des informations provenant de "responsables gouvernementaux anonymes"". Il souligne le caractère "troublant et, à vrai dire, inacceptable, de cette campagne de désinformation, qui vise à ternir l'image de la France et à égarer l'opinion publique". "Les méthodes employées par ceux qui propagent cette désinformation n'ont pas leur place dans les relations entre des amis et alliés, qui peuvent être en désaccord sur des questions importantes, mais qui ne devraient pas pratiquer le dénigrement ni le mensonge", écrit M. Levitte.

Le courrier cite huit éléments témoignant, selon l'ambassadeur, de cette campagne. Il s'agit d'articles parus depuis septembre 2002, dans les quotidiens The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Washington Times et dans l'hebdomadaire Newsweek, et se rapportant aux relations entre la France et l'Irak de Saddam Hussein. Des sociétés françaises ont été accusées d'avoir fourni à l'Irak des armements ou des composants prohibés par l'embargo de l'ONU.

Le 6 mai, le Washington Times a écrit que le gouvernement français avait délivré des passeports à des dirigeants du régime de Saddam Hussein pour leur permettre de se réfugier en Europe. Ces affirmations, toujours de sources anonymes, sont attribuées aux milieux du renseignement. Dans plusieurs cas, les démentis français n'ont pas été publiés ou bien ont été, ensuite, ignorés, l'information d'origine américaine étant présentée comme avérée.

Les responsables français estiment que ces articles sont inspirés par le Pentagone ou, plus précisément, par les dirigeants politiques du ministère de la défense, c'est-à-dire le ministre, Donald Rumsfeld, et ses adjoints et subordonnés civils.

Au cours d'une conférence de presse, jeudi, M. Rumsfeld a démenti l'existence d'une campagne de désinformation. "Certainement pas dans ce bâtiment", a-t-il dit, en se référant au Pentagone. "Je ne peux pas parler pour le reste du gouvernement, a-t-il ajouté, mais je n'ai rien entendu de tel."

Le ministre a confirmé l'abaissement du niveau des relations entre les armées américaine et française. Evoquant les invitations à participer à des exercices militaires communs, il a expliqué qu'il est normal d'"entretenir des relations, de préférence avec des gens avec lesquels il est probable que nous ferons des choses". "Nous nous tournons plutôt vers des pays qui nous ont aidés, par exemple, en Irak et en Afghanistan", a-t-il ajouté. Le ministre semble avoir oublié que les forces françaises ont participé aux opérations en Afghanistan. M. Bush en a même remercié la France lors d'une cérémonie, à la Maison Blanche, en mars 2002.

SIGNES DE M. BUSH

Le 9 mai, en réponse à une question sur les relations entre la France et le régime de Saddam Hussein, M. Rumsfeld avait déclaré : "La France a eu, historiquement, une relation très proche avec l'Irak. D'après ce que je comprends, cela a continué jusqu'au déclenchement de la guerre. Ce qui s'est passé ensuite, nous le découvrirons."Interrogé sur l'article du Washington Times, selon lequel des dirigeants du régime irakien déchu avaient reçu des passeports français, il avait répondu : "J'ai lu ces informations, mais je ne peux rien y ajouter."

Le 7 mai, un haut responsable de la Maison Blanche, s'adressant à des correspondants étrangers, déclarait : "Je ne suis pas sûr que cet article repose sur quelque chose." La veille, le porte-parole de la présidence, Ari Fleischer, avait pris acte du démenti français et indiqué qu'il ne pouvait pas "confirmer" l'article en question, mais il avait ajouté : "Je pense que les Français vont devoir expliquer ce qu'ils ont fait ou pas fait."

Interrogé, jeudi, sur ce même article, l'adjoint de M. Fleischer, Scott McClellan, a évité de dire si la Maison Blanche le considère, ou non, comme exact. Tout en affirmant que les propos de M. Levitte au sujet d'une campagne de désinformation "ne reposent sur aucune base"et que la France et les Etats-Unis sont "amis et alliés", le porte-parole adjoint de la présidence a refusé de se prononcer sur le climat antifrançais ou sur les appels au boycottage de la France. "Les Américains décident eux-mêmes de ce qu'ils veulent acheter", a-t-il dit, en tournant autour du sujet.

Cette attitude correspond à celle de M. Bush, qui, dans un entretien accordé, début mars, à l'agence Copley News Service, présentait comme un fait "intéressant" la réaction "des Américains eux-mêmes" vis-à-vis de la France, après que celle-ci s'était opposée aux Etats-Unis au sujet de l'Irak. Le président a distillé, depuis, d'autres signes de sympathie pour le sentiment antifrançais.

Patrick Jarreau

Un "manque de confiance"

Commentant les accusations portées contre l'administration par l'ambassadeur de France à Washington, le directeur du bureau des affaires politiques au département d'Etat américain, Richard Haass, a dit, jeudi 15 mai, lors d'une visite à Paris : "Je ne dis pas que c'est vrai parce que je n'en sais rien." "Mais, si cela était", a-t-il ajouté, la France et les Etats-Unis ne doivent pas se laisser "distraire" par ce genre de "rumeur" mais plutôt "se concentrer" et travailler ensemble "quand nous le pouvons" sur les dossiers essentiels, comme l'Irak, l'Afghanistan et le commerce. A propos de la dégradation des relations bilatérales, M. Haass a évoqué un "manque de confiance" nouveau et un "problème politique" profond. "Ne croyez pas que nous en sommes arrivés là seulement à cause de l'Irak, simplement en raison d'un désaccord sur ce seul dossier."
• ARTICLE PARU DANS L'EDITION DU 17.05.03
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:22   #425
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Quote:
Ohhh. He made a phone call in a situation France could do nothing about. Sounds like the politik thing to do.
France had nuclear warheads on its own, and De Gaulle put them for the interests of the west bloc at this very moment. The reward for such a move would have obviously been the nuking of France if the nuclear apocalypse indeed happened.

Had De Gaulle been the weasel the Yanks picture him to be, he'd have tried to get out of this mess rather than entering it wholeheartedly.
Big deal. We disavowed nuclear weapons long prior. We still would have got nuked along with the rest of the industrialised and much of the industrialising world. The rest would have died slowly over a period of 6 months or a year.

Nobody would have won. There was no weaseling out. Maybe De Gaulle knew that.

The French lent nothing. Not one jot. Well, OK. They offered to lend a fraction of a single percent to the destructive power of the whole shee-bang. Big congratulations there. Now, can you come up with one where the French had any say in what went down, but they still stood up?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:23   #426
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Yes, I intend to review every article in every issue of Le Monde, and then convince you, who are obviously very open to the idea, that a particular article is anti-american. Do you think that they put it in the sub-title? No, its all much more subtle. But I doubt that subtlety will make any impression on you. So I will say, " This is anti-american." And you will say "No its not". But you will know, in truth, that it is, and so will I.

This is not productive. As I have said many times, the French have every right to oppose us. If I were French, I probably would too. But it is strange to me that people don't think that we, in turn, should recognize this fact, and act accordingly.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:24   #427
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Hey spiff, isn;t it 6 am (or is it 5 am) over there? what you doing up so early on a sunday?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:29   #428
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Spiffor,

I'm sorry to say that few people can read French in America.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:30   #429
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Well ,I can, and its nothing you haven't read before.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:31   #430
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Quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Big deal. We disavowed nuclear weapons long prior. We still would have got nuked along with the rest of the industrialised and much of the industrialising world. The rest would have died slowly over a period of 6 months or a year.

Nobody would have won. There was no weaseling out. Maybe De Gaulle knew that.

The French lent nothing. Not one jot. Well, OK. They offered to lend a fraction of a single percent to the destructive power of the whole shee-bang. Big congratulations there. Now, can you come up with one where the French had any say in what went down, but they still stood up?
He already gave you one. He shouldn't have to keep giving them to you if you won't accept them.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:39   #431
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Quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Hey spiff, isn;t it 6 am (or is it 5 am) over there? what you doing up so early on a sunday?
I'm in the process of going to bed

Quote:
Originally posted by Lonewolf
Yes, I intend to review every article in every issue of Le Monde, and then convince you, who are obviously very open to the idea, that a particular article is anti-american. Do you think that they put it in the sub-title? No, its all much more subtle. But I doubt that subtlety will make any impression on you. So I will say, " This is anti-american." And you will say "No its not". But you will know, in truth, that it is, and so will I.

This is not productive. As I have said many times, the French have every right to oppose us. If I were French, I probably would too. But it is strange to me that people don't think that we, in turn, should recognize this fact, and act accordingly.
I am actually pretty open to admit it when my media is anti- American. I was shocked when I once have seen a serious program on France2 completely avoiding the true issues, and picturing the US only as a country led by a religious fundamentalist picturing himself as a crusader. I am aware that Les Guignols de l'Info sometimes push the anti-Bushism too far and cross the line to anti-Americanism.

But this is a thing I haven't seen in Le Monde. So, rather than patronising me, can you make your point please ?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:39   #432
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The White House and the Pentagon swiftly rejected any allegation that there was an orchestrated effort to spread disinformation about France, which drew Washington's ire by opposing the war to oust the Iraqi dictator.
'Orchestrated efforts' is not something unusual for the American press.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:40   #433
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Originally posted by Kidicious


He already gave you one. He shouldn't have to keep giving them to you if you won't accept them.
He gave an example of d!ck all.

The French nation would have been extinguished (along with the rest of humanity) whether they sided with the Yanks or not and the crisis went ballistic.

De Gaulle risked nothing by making a phone call.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:40   #434
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Seeing as how Shrub, with the support of the mainstream US media, has gone way out of the way to redefine an ally to be a vassal, and disagreement to treachery, Chirac has reason to be pissed at his administration.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:45   #435
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Sorry, I thought I had made my point. No sense in having a pissing contest about whether or not the French love or hate Americans. We both know the truth. Nicht wahr?
Rather, my point is that its ok, but why the angst in Euroland about us realizing it, and acting? Why should we not boycott, oppose, and hinder, as they do us?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:49   #436
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Even if they do boycott us what is boycotting them suppose to do? Do you think its going to make them support the next war?
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:51   #437
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Quote:
Originally posted by LoneWolf
Sorry, I thought I had made my point. No sense in having a pissing contest about whether or not the French love or hate Americans. We both know the truth. Nicht wahr?
Yes, Antiamericanism is indeed deeper in France than in other countries, partly because France isn't powerful enough to do its messianic mission, and witnesses the US doing their messianic mission. Nobody can doubt antiamericanism is more significant in France than in other places in the West.

Still, I have to see where Le Monde is antiamerican. If you don't want to prove it, I'm fine with it. But then, don't consider me of being stupid because I fail to see Le Monde's antiamericanism.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:52   #438
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Sorry, I thought I had made my point. No sense in having a pissing contest about whether or not the French love or hate Americans. We both know the truth. Nicht wahr?
Rather, my point is that its ok, but why the angst in Euroland about us realizing it, and acting? Why should we not boycott, oppose, and hinder, as they do us?
When they do stupid things, we should "hinder" them (just like they hindered us when we tried to get Gulf War II going). We have distinct foreign policies, you know.

As for boycotts against "Old" Euro goods, that's simply idiotic. Period.
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Old May 18, 2003, 00:59   #439
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Spiff- I never said you were stupid. I think we really don't disagree very much.
Ramo- My point is, precisely, that we DO have distinct foreign policies. To say something is "idiotic. Period." is idiotic. Period.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:02   #440
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I beleive you just contradicted yourself.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:10   #441
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Yes, obviously. I thought using your own concepts would bring you clarity.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:13   #442
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What clarity? You just BAMed. What possible purpose would boycotting French goods have?
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:20   #443
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Ah, to the point, then. A boycott is a very blunt instrument, no question about it. There can certainly be some "collateral damage". But it doesn't appear to me that this is your concern.
No, you seem to be troubled that it would not be effective. To this one can only say "We'll see". Still, the French are squealing about it, so that's a good sign to me.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:30   #444
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Ah, to the point, then. A boycott is a very blunt instrument, no question about it. There can certainly be some "collateral damage". But it doesn't appear to me that this is your concern.
No, you seem to be troubled that it would not be effective. To this one can only say "We'll see". Still, the French are squealing about it, so that's a good sign to me.
So we'd be hurting both US and Euro businesses, pissing them off, causing the situation to escalate and have them boycott our goods. And then they won't help us out as much when real threats come knocking on our door. None of these sound like good points to me.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:33   #445
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And then they won't help us out as much as what? As much as they have recently? As much as they could? A much as we would like?
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:38   #446
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As much as if we don't boycott them. Like how they helped out after 9/11. I wonder how much less support we would've had if there was a major trade war and questions of loyalty, etc., etc. immediately preceding 9/11.

'Course they opposed us during and preceding the war in Iraq, but they were perefectly justified in doing so. Since an alliance isn't the same thing as a vassalage. Independent foreign policy, etc., etc.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:46   #447
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Ramo, you are just not getting it. I absolutely agree that the French have the right to oppose us. I see that you oppose the war in Iraq. But I would hope that, nonetheless, your loyalty is still to the US, not France.

I have never said a word about "vassalage" (although I doubt that you really have a clear idea of what that means.)
I realize that it is much easier to argue against things you wish I would say, rather than things I actually do say.
But, again, my point is simply that, if a country wishes to be our adversary, we ought to treat them as such.
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Old May 18, 2003, 01:57   #448
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1. My loyalty is to no state. I do have loyalty to the people of the world. All of them - American, French, and Iraqi.

2. I know you didn't use the word vassalage. And yes, I know exactly what it means. I'm using the word to signify a relation of superiority and inferiority between states.

You seem to be saying that if France disagrees with us on an issue, it is an enemy and we should act accordingly. That's not how an alliance works. France isn't our puppet. Raising trade barriers and calling them enemies is an idiotic way to respond to legitimate disagreements in foreign policy.
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Old May 18, 2003, 02:08   #449
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No, no, Ramo, I don't care about your loyalty. It was an example. Try to keep up.
France did not just "disagree" with the US (I won't continue to say "us"). The French actively opposed the US. There is a big difference.
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Old May 18, 2003, 02:11   #450
Ramo
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So what if they opposed us? They were justified in doing so. Why should this warrant trade barriers?
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