Science discussion thread - Page 2

Snowflake · June 23, 2003, 10:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Vev
Wouldn't the people benefit from the productive principles of Planned economy, from Planetary Networks?

If it's not likely we will encounter anybody soon, then I agree that we should do Planned before we research the impactors. If we don't build any troops any time soon, the result of the military research is just sitting there while other researches would have a positive effect on eithor the productivity or the output of mineral/energy. We would be able to crunch out the better units faster with better productivity and/or more resources when needed. This is based on the assumption we don't encounter any faction soon. (Looks like even the Pirates haven't encountered anybody yet, so may be this assumption is true?)

So my take on the strategy is that we should strengthen our production, build bases like crazy, get the crawlers, then in a very short time crunch out the impactor research and build a strong military force and start to swipe out our enemies. Even if we encounter another faction before we finish the impactor research, and even if it has a stronger military force than us (which I doubt) we won't likely to be eliminated by it anyway with our built-in perimeter defense.

Kody · June 23, 2003, 19:36

If we are going to attempt to compete in the research field, the secret project merchant exchange is very useful. The merchant exchange works with crawlers adding +1 energy to every crawler that is gathering energy. Add a network node and a few other +%lab facilities and secret projects to those crawlers and that single city can become responsible for almost all of our research output.

Kody

Vev · June 23, 2003, 19:50

We'll see what happens when everyone does a SP race. Someone has to lose and someone will win. Which means, we have to decide on a backup SP incase our 1st, 2nd or even 3rd choice fails.

Snowflake · June 23, 2003, 22:54

I confess that I've never played Yang before but I somehow think that it is almost impossible for Yang to compete in the research field. Plus ME only works in one base. This super-science base could be an easy target for a future enemy with PB. Crawlers on the other hand is simply indespensible.

Rec tank is also really cheap compare to a SP and if we build many many small base it could give us some benefit.

Frankychan · June 24, 2003, 00:25

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...24#post2116924

(carried over)

Marshal Rokossovsky-It looks like you and I both see things the same way. I believe that we have some time to build up our industrial power before we need to focus on our military. I think after we obtain Industrial Automation, we can go full speed into Military R&D (reseach & development).

I personally have an aversion to the Merchant Exchange (I don't know why....

), so I can't comment much on it. I've built it a couple of times and found that it does help, but I think we should start discussing the development of Secret Projects that we would all like. Maybe justify why an SP should take precedence over another.

What do all the comrades think/

Vev · June 24, 2003, 03:09

A new thread for SP?

Static Universe · June 24, 2003, 05:20

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu

Plus ME only works in one base. This super-science base could be an easy target for a future enemy with PB. Crawlers on the other hand is simply indespensible.

Even if we lose it later at least it will benefit us for a while, and keep others from getting it.

Snowflake · June 24, 2003, 13:18

Could be our third alternative SP.

Snowflake · June 24, 2003, 18:03

Been reading some more. Here's something written by buster:

It is more normal than not to see the top players actually have as their top priority in the early stages of the game to get the wealth technology and beelining their research towards it. Hopefully we will have a write-up on research beelines soon. Once you get the tech, then set all your cities to crank out a crawler or two, then maybe a colony pod or a former (depending on size and what is already built), then more crawlers, formers and colony pods. Maybe a recycling tank or a rec common if the city needs it, but otherwise facilities are low priority at this point. Getting crawlers and terraforming done (so they have something to crawl) and more cities built is the key.

I would highly recommend we get the crawlers first. It seems we are still a long way from it. Let's hope we'll meet somebody soon and is able to trade a tech or two.

Frankychan · June 25, 2003, 23:13

Where did you get this?

He's basically said the same things we are discussing here.

Good work, Comrade HongHu.

Rokossovky · June 26, 2003, 00:58

Quote:

So my take on the strategy is that we should strengthen our production, build bases like crazy, get the crawlers, then in a very short time crunch out the impactor research and build a strong military force and start to swipe out our enemies.

I agree 100%. We need to get crawlers, and build formers. But, one musn't forget the SP's. Right now I am asking about SP in the turn update (plz go comment), and terraforming techniques in the Turn Chat (also plz go comment). lol, yea yea, it's all over the place, but whatever works eh? As far as encountering other factions... in my personal opinion, it won't happen soon, if it does, they will probably be friendly, and applied physics should cover us for the time (as long as we spend the EC's and upgrade our scouts and ****). Frankychan and I (and I think HongHu would agree), that after applied our target should be Industrial Automation for the economic and production gains (I forget where crawlers are though... can someone enlighten? That would also be a definate target in NEAR future). The Hive, is I think... 5 turns away from it's second colony pod. After that, it would come open to produce what we want (I am thinking former, then Laser Infantry, then more formers). Voltarograd is going to be building colony pods for the forseeable future, and (see Turn Update), I am thinking we start WP at Kommie after this last former. So... *shrugs* tell me what you think

- Rokossovky

Kody · June 26, 2003, 01:24

Could be fun to switch our cities to a SP project for the first few minerals then switch to our real production target. We won't lose any minerals because it's under 10. We'll might make other people rush their SP project because they want to outbuild us, or maybe a faction will delay going after a SP project simply because they don't think they can outbuild us.

Hopefully either thing will cause them to waste resources, by making bad timing decisions.

Kody

Vev · June 26, 2003, 01:24

well crawlers are in industrial automation

as for which city to plonk the SP, I don't know.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 10:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Frankychan

Where did you get this?

From here.

There are quite a few good articals here, I recommend comrades read them at your spare time, especially the ones written by buster, if only for the purpose of being prepared.

Also here's the buglist, don't know which is not allowed and which is but it'll be good to get familiar with them. We'll be put in a disadvantage if we don't know these and others know.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 10:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Rokossovky

Frankychan and I (and I think HongHu would agree), that after applied our target should be Industrial Automation for the economic and production gains (I forget where crawlers are though... can someone enlighten? That would also be a definate target in NEAR future).

Yes, definitely agree.

Quote:

The Hive, is I think... 5 turns away from it's second colony pod. After that, it would come open to produce what we want (I am thinking former, then Laser Infantry, then more formers). Voltarograd is going to be building colony pods for the forseeable future, and (see Turn Update), I am thinking we start WP at Kommie after this last former. So... *shrugs* tell me what you think

- Rokossovky

Sounds a pretty good plan to me. We probably want Kommie produce one colony pod before switching to WP though. And Hive should not produce any more colony pod because of the bad location. There are lots of other things it can build such as formers and prototype infantry, etc.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 12:44

Look at this from another article:

Instabuilding is a term that smacers have coined for “starting and finishing the build of a secret project all in 1 turn.” Post Industrial Automation, it is virtually the only way a secret project should be built.

I started to wonder if we should hold up the SP a little and concentrate on getting the crawlers. Suppose we start it now, we may need 30 something turns, and other faction may try hurry their research and production of crawlers and before we know it they could finish the SP that we are trying to get and we would end up wasting all those minerals.

Googlie · June 26, 2003, 14:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Rokossovky
(I forget where crawlers are though... can someone enlighten? ).

Crawlers come with Industrial Automation

Googlie · June 26, 2003, 14:33

Or you could capture some of Roze's drop armored trance ones that I left lurking for her to find in middle and late game to instabuild later SPs

.................................................. .................................................. .............................just kidding by Googlie, June 26 at 11:30

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 14:53

Or you could just capture the enemy base that has the SP I guess.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 15:17

This leads to a new question, are we playing the Hive as a momentum faction or a builder? All the discussions about crawler techs are more related to the builders I think. I see big difference in tech tree recommendations depending on who you are.

For example, here's the tech tree Ogie Oglethorpe recommends for builder type:
Cent Ecology
Ind Base
Ind Econ
Plan Nets
Social Psych - (IA doesn't normally show after PN)
Ind Auto
(Ogie Oglethorpe also indicates that you should get IA around 2114 to 2119. Which means we are probably quite behind.)

and here is Buster's recommended tech tree for early game combat:
Centauri Ecology - you need those crawlers (should be formers - HH) to get your empire going.
Information Networks & Planetary Networks - to get probes and be able to go planned.
Doctrine Mobility - to get rovers and command centers.
Applied Physics and Non-Linear Mathematics - weapons.
doctrine flexibility - ships
High Energy Chemistry & head for planes, MMI and Fusion (puts you pretty much on regular builder beeline)

I've never been a wargoinger but I suspect the Hive is best played as a momentual faction? What I don't know for sure is how big a benefit going to early war is other than you could wipe out one of your opponents. The problem is while you are busy at war, others are building and researching and if you don't become much stronger after the war then it's not likely you'll be able to wage another war toward a stronger opponent. However, early game means a lot of factions may only have size 1 bases and you will not gain any new base through war. The only other benefit I can see is that you can probe him for tech and maps and stuff and that means we need a lot of probe teams built.

Tech wise so far we've got
1) Doctrine: Loyalty, POLICE STATE
2) Centauri Ecology, Formers, WP
3) Info Networks, Network Node
and we're working on
4) Applied Physics, Laser (2)
Is that right? I think a possible option after Applied is to research Planet Networks, which gives us Planned and probe. By the time we finish PN, it's likely we've found out who is in the connected continent and if we should go the war route (impactor, mobility) or the crawler route (IB, IE, IA).

Googlie · June 26, 2003, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Or you could just capture the enemy base that has the SP I guess.

Hmm - the 2 AI factions should be a lot stronger than you'd encounter in single-player games (remember from my early general posts that I had to "dumb-down" the beefed up AI 'cos I'd made them just too overpowering )

Of course they will still do the stupid AI things like use crawlers as explorers, build 100 needlejets then site them all in one base etc etc, but they can be made effective (eg Miriam can be set to commit atrocities wantonly and then she equips nervegas to her noodles, and builds oodles of PBs, especially if linked to especially aggressive and also obliterates captured bases)

(These various tweaks can all be seen if you choose when loading a game the "Scenario" and "Create Scenario" functions, then hit the "scenario" tab from the left hand menu when the (empty sea) map loads. Go then to "edit faction personality" and to "edit faction strategy" and you'll see all the things that can be done to tweak the AI in a scenario-start game such as this one)

G.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 15:27

As for SP, I remember reading somebody saying don't start a SP until you have 15 minerals.

I suspect university would be among the first who start SPs, but hopefully they'll go for VW, that means we could still hope to get WP.

Snowflake · June 26, 2003, 15:35

Now that I've filled my post quota for two days perhaps, I'll stop for a while and probably won't come back until tomorrow night, when Captain Flaire starts to play SMAC again and Comrade SU comes back to the Hive so that he can make me a nice forward-looking avatar.

Vev · June 30, 2003, 02:06

What would our stance be in tech trading?

Snowflake · June 30, 2003, 22:58

Looks to me loyalty and AP may be the ones that other factions do not have. Most possibly they've already got IB, IE and PN.

Kody · July 8, 2003, 05:10

I suggest we beeline for flexibility and start looking for factions to trade with. Also the pod popping will make it worth our while. After flexibility we go for wealth.

The drones look like they will get the WP. They started a project in turn 2. I think this was mainly so they could beat the AI to the secret projects. According to googlie's playtesting the AI is going to outbuild human players with secret projects and cash in their armored trance crawlers.

Since it will be very difficult getting secret projects I suggest our first aim will be on new cities and expanding terriority. That means flexibility so we can start colonising the smaller continents that are probably out there.

Kody

Vev · July 8, 2003, 09:46

Especially if we find ourselves trapped on an island.

Googlie · July 8, 2003, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Kody
..... and cash in their armored trance crawlers.

I'd hate for a faction to set strategy on a joke - didn't you see the ........... just kidding by Googlie ........... disclaimer in that post of mine?

G.

Kody · July 8, 2003, 10:41

Umm I guess I didn't.

Kody

Snowflake · July 8, 2003, 10:42

I still think that crawler is a more important priorty. Also I think we should considering start SP in the valley base. A former should work on one of the mineral bonus right away, then the nut bonus. After a colony pod, the base should start SP. Before it is finished hopefully we'll got IA and all bases should produce a crawler, we'll cash in perhaps two to finish the SP. I still believe that we can do it. Plus I think I read somewhere that there's no penalty to switch SP so if we fail to get the WP we can still switch to another.