Oil and Uranium

[techumseh]

While the discovery of Industrialization creates cities which supply oil and Nuclear Fission creates cities that supply uranium, what I don't know is what creates the demand for these commodities. Does anyone know what does?

[solo]

Yes, check out this thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=67754

For some reason the link is not working, but I have bumped the thread, entitled "How Supply and Demand Lists Are Determined"

[techumseh]

Thanks.

[techumseh]

That's REALLY complicated! I'm not sure I followed everything.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by techumseh
While the discovery of Industrialization creates cities which supply oil

Oil can be supplied by some cities long before that time.

----------------------

SG(2)

[Hydey]

I often have cities supply oil when first discovering trade and building carravans for trade routes. This is most annoying as no city will demand oil at this stage.

[rah]

And coal too. It's rare when a city demands coal early.

I never worry about cities demanding uranium. By the time a city supplies it, half my empire seems to demand it.

[War4ever]

yeah coal and oil early are a mystery....coal gives a good bonus too...same with oil...but it takes a long time before they are demanded.

sometimes i just send out the vans for routes to a big city in hopes the commodities will reset....but this doesn't always work.

[rah]

Yeah, even without it being demanded, delivering it to a large trade city can be good.

[solo]

Originally posted by techumseh
That's REALLY complicated! I'm not sure I followed everything.

I agree that it's very complicated, so you can imagine how hard is was for someone to figure it all out.

I have tried to simplify, summarize and explain many of Samson's findings in my Early Landing Guide. See the section on trade.

As noted by others, uranium supply is almost non-existent, but can sometimes be manipulated, using the info in Samson's thread.

While rare early in the game, the demand for coal can occur in cities that have grown quickly, which are near the poles, and which do not have strong demand for other commodities. Again, this demand can lay dormant until triggered by a cycle turn or the delivery of another commodity first.

(I repaired the link to Samson's thread, which also was repaired in my guide. Now they should both work.)

[rah]

Originally posted by solo
While rare early in the game, the demand for coal can occur in cities that have grown quickly, which are near the poles, and which do not have strong demand for other commodities. Again, this demand can lay dormant until triggered by a cycle turn or the delivery of another commodity first.

Yes, that has been my experience and it's nice to see experience lining up with the thoery.
If I have a coal demand, I will try to rush a coal there quickly before the city grows to the next change level.

[War4ever]

still the biggest aggravation, getting the coal there and boom....changes on you.....

but if it was easy all the time, other records would fall quicker...

i admit , that is a confusing read !

[solo]

Originally posted by War4ever
still the biggest aggravation, getting the coal there and boom....changes on you.....

but if it was easy all the time, other records would fall quicker...

i admit , that is a confusing read !

This used to be a major aggravation for me, too! Demand always seemed to change just one turn away from delivery, too!

You might want to keep track of city cycle turns, which is when demand lists are updated and changed. I've had no problems with late deliveries after doing this.

[rah]

In MP games early you don't have much time in between turns to pay attention to the minutea, but after reading the threads I try to pay a little attention to those types of things when possible. It has helped a little, but you need more time to do it right. And time is in short supply in those games.

[War4ever]

Thanks for advice solo, its more applicable in sp mode tho when time isnt' your enemy, unless the wife wants you to come to bed..... just one more turn honey i swear!!!!!

in mp, its far too time consuming to watch everything...gosh knows i can't .....its more like speed chess..

[solo]

Yes, I’m forgetting that MP players are pressed for time. In MGE “Find City” does not list cities chronologically, either, making a city’s cycle turns more difficult to determine.

However, just having the knowledge that demands are updated every 16 turns can often be enough to determine if a delivery can be made in time. For example, you may have a coal caravan, and having been checking for demand for a few turns, and then it does show up in a city. If the new demand for coal was not triggered by another delivery to that city, it was probably that city’s cycle turn that caused the list to be updated. If so, now you know that if there are not any other intervening triggering events, you will have 15 turns left to deliver coal to that city.

A few more things can be done by MP players to increase the chances of delivering demanded commodities:

1) Since not getting far enough in time is usually the reason for expiring demand, give preference to factors other than distance that increase payments. For example, a demanded cargo delivered to another civ on another nearby continent will pay very well.

2) Give preference to wildcard commodities when conducting trades. When you click on a city, the middle commodity is almost always going to be the wildcard commodity. When the demand list is updated, they are most likely to remain on it, unless the civ’s tech total has reached 32, which is when wildcards change. In the early game, remember that only 7 commodities can appear as wildcards: hides, beads, salt, copper, wine, silver and gems, so try to pick these for making trades. Avoid trading wool and cloth, which can never be wildcards. When wildcards change after most civs have 32 or more techs, avoid trading hides, wool, beads, cloth and salt, since they can no longer be wildcards.

3) For non-wildcard commodities, the left hand commodity on a city’s list is more likely to remain in demand after a list update than the one appearing on the right.

4) Try bringing caravans to a destination in pairs, and if possible, have dye or copper as one of the commodities, and your “demanded” cargo as the other. If demand expires before you arrive, it’s likely that dye or copper became part of the the demand list, “covering” this demand. Trading the dye or copper first may reestablish the demand that just disappeared.

5) Due to the “dye/copper” bug a good rule of thumb is that demand for one or both may appear after a trade if it wasn’t there beforehand. Otherwise, a trade is most likely to eliminate pre-exisitng demand.

Before the recent discoveries about demand list properties, it was equally frustrating to approach a city with two demanded cargos and not knowing which one to deliver first, since the first delivery often erased the demand for the other commodity. Often, reversing the order of the trades is all that is needed to cash in on both bonuses.

[rah]

City size is one thing you can pay attention to without taking too much time.

[War4ever]

well i find trading with myself not so much of a problem, my cities are close together and i get the demanded stuff there quick

its the off shore trading with my allies , i think they do it to spite me

Solo, thanks for the tips...... are you saying that the far right commdity basically falls off the list for demand? and the others slide over a space? its really not as simple as that is it?

[rah]

Originally posted by solo
4) Try bringing caravans to a destination in pairs, and if possible, have dye or copper as one of the commodities, and your “demanded” cargo as the other. If demand expires before you arrive, it’s likely that dye or copper became part of the the demand list, “covering” this demand. Trading the dye or copper first may reestablish the demand that just disappeared.

5) Due to the “dye/copper” bug a good rule of thumb is that demand for one or both may appear after a trade if it wasn’t there beforehand. Otherwise, a trade is most likely to eliminate pre-exisitng demand.

Sorry have to snicker at this one. If I have a lot of dye or copper caravans, there aren't any problems and a lot of thinking isn't required.

[solo]

War4ever,

If the far right commodity loses demand it is apt to fall off the list, replaced by another that gained. If it gains demand itself, it is likely to move to the left and become hidden under the wildcard. Not much leeway for remaining visible and useful.

[techumseh]

This is very interesting stuff, but still a little confusing. My purpose in asking is to finalize a tech tree for a Test of Time scenario I'm making. It's set in central Africa during the time of European exploration and early colonialism. The idea is to have African civs produce Oil (Slaves) and Uranium (Ivory) and have the Arab civ demand Oil (Slaves) and the European ones demand Urainium (Ivory). Any tips?

[Boco]

Does this sound right for African civs and Uranium?

1) Give the African civs NF but few other techs (i.e. minimize the DQ).

2) Then try to maximize the SQ by having BIG cities with little or no Grass/Plains/Swamp/Jungle and as many specials and rivers as possible.


How long is the scenario? Is it safe to assume that trade commodity settings made at the start will hold for 16 turns?

[War4ever]

Solo, i still find the wildcard (commodity) stuff confusing..... is there a way to control the wildcard?

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by War4ever
... unless the wife wants you to come to bed..... just one more turn honey i swear!!!!!

What's this, Warz? Have I missed something? Are congratulations in order?

SG[1]

[SCG]

Originally posted by War4ever
Solo, i still find the wildcard (commodity) stuff confusing..... is there a way to control the wildcard?

I'd have to say sometimes
the wildcard is predetermined by the 2 coordinates of the city (so founding 1 space away will change the wildcard) and by the # of techs that have been aquired (>32 recalculates the wildcard)

other than that, you're down to using trigger events to get the list to change to get them to appear or disappear.

side note: one of the more interesting things i found about solo/sampson's research was that terraforming will change the supply/demand list (won't change the wildcards, but alters factors determining the rest of the commodities)

[rickontherun_21]

do you get more money for differnet types eg more for oil than beads?

[War4ever]

SG...no not married yet....*phew*

SCG that makes sense considering the terrain changes when you modify it..i was going to ask this, ie mining specials...if i deliver three caravans to a city, the turn before i mine them, and they fill up (ie used) do i get new commodities that i can fill the next turn? or do i get new commodities which are already used up (ie in brackets)

woudn't it make sense to mine your specials , deliver caravans, then get new supply and demand liists that are vacant??

has anyone tested this?

Rick on the run....different commodities pay differrntly....there was a thread which stated the bonuses each commodity paid out...

[SCG]

i've not seen mining affect the S/D lists unless you count changing a grassland or plain into a forest. The main function of specials in the S/D formulas seem to be that they count as 4 of a terrain rather than 1.

So yes, it does make sence to build your vans, uncover a hidden special (-1 to grassland, +4 to forest or hills)and then deliver the goods - you may well create a whole new S/D list with nothing blocked

[War4ever]

HM...... i will have to try this in an mp game... last night i played and it was an ugly game for me...late start, bad huts. late monarchy, big waste of space between my two empires...and my two cities 16 squares apart....

but i had a bunch of sets mining hidden specials and fixing the land up....i wish i had remembered to check supply and demands....

i kept setting up trade routes for 4-16gc to my own civ instead of building wonders my empire so desperately needed

i also forgot to pay attention to city growth, and had a few commodities change on me...

i may have to test this one myself....

are you refering to blocking as changed commodity takes the place of a trade route you already have?

[Straybow]

Yes, blocked = commodity in parentheses.

Two empires?