Why faith is an impossible argument

Kuciwalker · May 21, 2003, 19:14

"I contend that we are both atheists; I simply believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you don't believe in all the other gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours."

I don't know who said this, but this is one of my favorite quotes. It shows that when someone insists you have "faith" in something, it is no more true than what some other person told you to have faith in. So which should I believe, in this god or that? All are equally (un)supported.

Cruddy · May 21, 2003, 19:24

I guess faith is an illogical argument. Accepting something without proof (not evidence - not the same) is illogical.

It's not impossible though, and we have to take a lot of everyday things on faith (for instance, the existence of other countries and the events of the past).

As for the religion angle - if a religion has any worth, it's giving people a set of guidelines to live by. I guess we all know truly religious, evangelical people. Showing scepicism to them isn't the same as showing scorn.

It's horrible living without a set of at least some basic guidelines. I know, I've been there... and I don't want to go back.

Zero · May 21, 2003, 19:26

we rely on faith more than we think we do.

Mercator · May 21, 2003, 19:27

Believe in all of them, just to be sure.

SlowwHand · May 21, 2003, 19:43

Zero makes one heck of an observation.

Sava · May 21, 2003, 19:48

Skywalker: You make a very good point. I think religion is an interesting phenomenon. Humans, most of them anyways, have logical intelligence. But as children, are very impressionable. I would love to see a movie where someone tries to teach an AI (computer) to believe in God.

SlowwHand · May 21, 2003, 19:49

It's not only children that find their faith.

SlowwHand · May 21, 2003, 19:51

And besides that, why stop at faith ?
See if your AI buddy recognizes any emotion.

Your analogies are striking.

Zero · May 21, 2003, 19:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
Believe in all of them, just to be sure.

being a deist is ur best bet if u think about it.

My own version of "Pascals wager".

Atheist - Doesnt win if any god exists.
Christian/Muslim/Mormon etc - Bet all chips on one pile
Deist - (at judgement day)"Can I get at least partial credit for knowing u exist but I just couldnt recall your name?"

Sava · May 21, 2003, 19:53

I think religious faith is more a question of socialization, impressionability, and the question of need.

SlowwHand · May 21, 2003, 19:54

"In a fox-hole, there are no atheists".

Bank on it.

loinburger · May 21, 2003, 19:55

Faith is illogical, but so what? You can't live life by logic alone. (Or maybe you could, but why would you want to?)

Asher · May 21, 2003, 19:56

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
And besides that, why stop at faith ?
See if your AI buddy recognizes any emotion.

Your analogies are striking.

AI can and do recognize emotion. Using even webcams and cheap microphones it can analyze voice pitch, facial expressions, and pretty accurately determine emotion.

Lincoln · May 21, 2003, 19:58

It is interesting how much af mans logic has been proved wrong over the years. One who relies on logic alone rests on shifting sand.

Sava · May 21, 2003, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero

being a deist is ur best bet if u think about it.

My own version of "Pascals wager".

Atheist - Doesnt win if any god exists.
Christian/Muslim/Mormon etc - Bet all chips on one pile
Deist - (at judgement day)"Can I get at least partial credit for knowing u exist but I just couldnt recall your name?"

in an attempt to be serious... I don't think that God would hold disbelief against anyone. If God wanted, surely God could present concrete proof of existence. One has to wonder about the mental health of a God that would create intelligent life and then penalize it for not believing without providing any evidence. If God is like that, then I wouldn't want to worship such a psychopath anyhow.

This catch-22 of sorts is one of the reasons I tend to think Judeo-Christianity is wrong. If God exists, no human knows what to expect. I can't tell you what's right, just what doesn't make sense. Most religions don't. And it's disturbing that so many people base their beliefs and actions on something that makes little sense.

Sava · May 21, 2003, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
"In a fox-hole, there are no atheists".

Bank on it.

You're wrong, but when has that stopped you before?

Asher · May 21, 2003, 20:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Lincoln
It is interesting how much af mans logic has been proved wrong over the years. One who relies on logic alone rests on shifting sand.

Yes, faith helps us reinforce this sand with water.

Oerdin · May 21, 2003, 20:01

My God is better then your God and I will keep blowing up buildings until you agree.

Signed: OBL

Sava · May 21, 2003, 20:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Oerdin
My God is better then your God and I will keep blowing up buildings until you agree.

Signed: George W. Bush

Zero · May 21, 2003, 21:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava

in an attempt to be serious... I don't think that God would hold disbelief against anyone. If God wanted, surely God could present concrete proof of existence. One has to wonder about the mental health of a God that would create intelligent life and then penalize it for not believing without providing any evidence. If God is like that, then I wouldn't want to worship such a psychopath anyhow.

This catch-22 of sorts is one of the reasons I tend to think Judeo-Christianity is wrong. If God exists, no human knows what to expect. I can't tell you what's right, just what doesn't make sense. Most religions don't. And it's disturbing that so many people base their beliefs and actions on something that makes little sense.

actually, ur wrong. If you are God, you are fully capable of creating a sentient being with ability to make a choice. And at the same time penalize u for not believing in him.

Dude the man is god. U cant tell him what not to do.

I'd do the same. If I had a craving for beings to worship me, Id create them with free will, so that they can choose to love me, instead of programming them to do so. And dispose of others that choose the other outcome.

St Leo · May 21, 2003, 21:19

"As a teenager I was a committed Christian. It was in my background. I used to work for the school chapel, in fact. Then one day when I was about eighteen I was walking down the street when I heard a street evangelist and, dutifully, stopped to listen. As I listened it began to be borne in on me that he was talking complete nonsense, and that I had better have a bit of a think about it.
[...] In the years I'd spent learning history, physics, Latin, math, I'd learnt (the hard way) something about standards of argument, standards of proof, standards of logic, etc. In fact we had just been learning how to spot the different types of logical fallacy, and it suddenly became apparent to me that these standards simply didn't seem to apply in religious matters. In religious education we were asked to listen respectfully to arguments that, if they had been put forward in support of a view of, say, why the Corn Laws came to be abolished when they were, would have been laughed at as silly and childish and – in terms of logic and proof – just plain wrong."

- Douglas Adams, interview

Cruddy · May 21, 2003, 21:33

That's how theologians earn their bread - by actually giving arguments for reliogious beliefs.

Evangelists earn their bread by taking it from the guillable.

St Leo · May 21, 2003, 22:41

" What astonished me [...] was the realization that the arguments in favor of religious ideas were so feeble and silly next to the robust arguments of something as interpretive and opinionated as history. In fact they were embarrassingly childish. They were never subject to the kind of outright challenge which was the normal stock in trade of any other area of intellectual endeavor whatsoever. Why not? Because they wouldn't stand up to it. So I became an Agnostic. And I thought and thought and thought. But I just did not have enough to go on, so I didn't really come to any resolution. I was extremely doubtful about the idea of god, but I just didn't know enough about anything to have a good working model of any other explanation for, well, life, the universe, and everything to put in its place. But I kept at it, and I kept reading and I kept thinking. Sometime around my early thirties I stumbled upon evolutionary biology, particularly in the form of Richard Dawkins's books The Selfish Gene and then The Blind Watchmaker, and suddenly (on, I think the second reading of The Selfish Gene) it all fell into place. It was a concept of such stunning simplicity, but it gave rise, naturally, to all of the infinite and baffling complexity of life. The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."

- Douglas Adams, interview

May 21, 2003, 23:16

Amen to that...
The Blind Watchmaker is a great Book

Douglas Adams will be remembered

Urban Ranger · May 21, 2003, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
"In a fox-hole, there are no atheists".

Bank on it.

Snooze. I think there has just been a run on your bank. It's now finished.

Sava · May 21, 2003, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero

actually, ur wrong. If you are God, you are fully capable of creating a sentient being with ability to make a choice. And at the same time penalize u for not believing in him.

Dude the man is god. U cant tell him what not to do.

I'd do the same. If I had a craving for beings to worship me, Id create them with free will, so that they can choose to love me, instead of programming them to do so. And dispose of others that choose the other outcome.

I didn't say program, I said provide evidence.

Sava · May 21, 2003, 23:22

Good article UR

Urban Ranger · May 21, 2003, 23:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
actually, ur wrong. If you are God, you are fully capable of creating a sentient being with ability to make a choice. And at the same time penalize u for not believing in him.

God is not the same as an omnipotent being. Your conception of a god is largely influenced by Christianity.

Urban Ranger · May 21, 2003, 23:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
we rely on faith more than we think we do.

"Faith" is ill defined. What does it entail?

Hot Mustard · May 21, 2003, 23:24

While atheists don't have faith in a supernatural being, they operate on faith just as much as any other human being. Otherwise they'd all be solipsists.

One of my favourite jokes: Solipsists of the world unite!