Magic the Gathering rules

[Ben Kenobi]

As requested, here's a thread for anyone with a rules question. If I don't know the answer, I'm sure someone else will.

So post if you have a question, so long as it has to do with MtG rules.

[Urban Ranger]

Okay, could you explain to me now how counters work? When I used to play, these belong to a category called "Interrupts," which resolve faster than Instants, and work LIFO.

Now they have gotten rid of Interrupts, and since Instants resolve FIFO, how could counters work?

[Immortal Wombat]

What are LIFO and FIFO?

[Ben Kenobi]

Now they have gotten rid of Interrupts, and since Instants resolve FIFO, how could counters work?

UR:

Place them on the stack.

Here's an example.

I try to cast time walk, as a sorcery.

When my opponent fails to respond, I also cast Lightning Bolt, an instant.

My opponent, at three life tries to cast healing salve as an instant to save his life.

Here is how the stack resolves.

The last spell cast is the healing salve, so my opponent gains three life.

Then comes the lightning bolt.

Finally, the time walk takes effect.

At any point, people can cast spells on top of these.

Suppose my opponent does not like time walk. The lightning bolt taps out my mana making me vunerable to force spike. My opponent could cast force spike, after all the mana has been tapped for the other spells, and after his healing salve. He just has to let the first two spells resolve, then he can cast his counter spell on top of the time walk, countering the time walk.

Counter spells simple counter the next spell below them on the stack, whatever that spell may be.

IW:

FIFO = First In, First Out
LIFO = Last In, First Out

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by obiwan18
UR:

Place them on the stack.

Okay, so they are all LIFO now. What WotC used to explain is you can't put instants in a stack, because all instants are the same speed, so they have to be in a queue.

I like the old system better.

[Urban Ranger]

Suppose you have the Sliver Queen, a few colourless slivers, and the following:

-- an Acidic Sliver (BR, Summon Sliver 2/2, Stronghold Uncommon, Each Sliver gains “2, Sacrifice this creature: This creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player.”)

-- a Victual Sliver (GW, Summon Sliver 2/2, Stronghold Uncommon, Each Sliver gains “2, Sacrifice this creature: Gain 4 life.”)

-- a Mindwhip Sliver (2B, Summon Sliver 2/2, Tempest Uncommon, Each Sliver gains “2, Sacrifice this creature: Target player discards a card at random. Play this ability as a sorcery.”)

-- a Mnemonic Sliver (2U, Summon Sliver 2/2, Tempest Uncommon, Each Sliver gains “2, Sacrifice this creature: Draw a card.”).

Would paying 2 mana to sacriface a colourless silver token activate all these effects?

[SnowFire]

UR: As for counters, spells go on the stack when cast. Once both players pass priority, the highest item on the stack resolves. Functionally, you can imagine counters as now saying "remove target spell from the stack." I cast Shivan Dragon and pass. You cast Counterspell and pass. I curse and pass priority as well, having nothing to do. Counterspell resolves, removing Shivan Dragon from the stack.

How is this different from the old system? Back in the day, you had to counter a spell functionally before it ever went on the stack. If you weren't fast enough to "interrupt" it, once it went on the stack it was there permenantly. So if you wanted to cast an instant before countering (say, to search for a counter), that wasn't an option. Under the new system, you can have a stack like this:
I cast Hypnotic Specter. Pass
You cast Mystical Tutor. Pass.
I pass.
Mystical Tutor resolves. You search through your library for an instant and put it on top of your library- in this case, Counterspell.
I pass.
You cast Brainstorm. Pass.
I pass.
Brainstorm resolves, being on top of the stack. You draw 3 cards and put 2 back. Gee, I wonder what one card you kept?
I pass.
You cast Counterspell, targetting my Specter which is still sitting politely on the bottom of the stack. Pass.
I fiendishly grin and cast the Memory Lapse I had been holding on your counter. Pass.
You pass.
Memory Lapse resolves, removing the Counter from the stack and putting it on top of your library.
I pass, you pass, the counter isn't on the stack anymore and never resolves, then Hypnotic Specter resolves.

As for Slivers... no. Look at Darkling Stalker as an example... for 1 black mana, you can pump it +1/+1, and for 1 black mana, you can regenerate it. You choose which ability to use when spending a black mana. Spending a black mana doesn't magically activate both abilities.
So, every Sliver has an ability saying "sacrifice me and get this." Just because the condition is the same for each ability doesn't mean you don't have to choose which one you use...
Note that if every Sliver got the ability "when it goes to the graveyard, blah" then all of them would activate if you could figure out a way to sacrifice it.

When my opponent fails to respond, I also cast Lightning Bolt, an instant.

Then your opponent calls the judge over, if this is a tournament. In order to insure that games actually _end_ and you don't get endless Mexican standoffs, once you pass priority and see if your opponent has a response, if your opponent has no response, the highest thing on the stack resolves since both players have said "pass." Otherwise you could have people passing priority back and forth and yet with neither one wanting to let the stack resolve; somebody has to have the last crack at it.

What you do is cast Time Walk, and then in response to your own action cast Lightning Bolt if you'd like it to resolve that way. Although obviously all bets are off if your opponent does in fact respond, in which case you're free to start casting whatever you want.

[loinburger]

-Do Enchant World cards still work as originally intended, or have the rule changes buggered around with them?

-If I play a land that requires that I sacrifice lands or return lands to my hand when I bring the land into play (e.g. Lotus Vale or Scorched Ruins or Everglades), then how is this effect resolved when I have an enchantment like Blood Moon or Celestial Dawn in play? In other words, if I bring Lotus Vale into play (which requires the sacrifice of 2 basic lands) while Celestial Dawn is in play (which turns all lands into basic Plains), then am I exempt from the land sacrifice? How about if I bring Lotus Vale into play while Celestial Dawn is in play, and then sacrifice Celestial Dawn -- do I have to sacrifice two basic lands, or am I exempt from the cost since Lotus Vale was already in play (even though it was being treated as a basic Plains)?

-If I Donate a Celestial Dawn (or some other similar enchantment) to my opponent, then does Celestial Dawn take immediate effect for my opponent and immediately lose its effect for me? In other words, is the enchantment's effect tranference instantaneous? I ask specifically for the hypothetical when I've got a Gloom and Donate in my hand and have a Celestial Dawn in play -- if I cast a Donate and then a Gloom on the same turn, then does the Donate resolve first, or do they resolve at the same time?

-By the same token, if I've got a land in play that produces more than one mana when tapped (e.g. Lotus Vale or Everglades) but also have a Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon in play (which causes my uber-land to produce only one mana), and I then tap this land for one mana and subsequently destroy the Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon, then am I then subject to mana burn?

[DinoDoc]

Newbie question: I play a Skirk Outrider but I have no beasts in play at that time. Later I draw and play a beast card. Does the Outrider get the +2/+2 then?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SnowFire
How is this different from the old system? Back in the day, you had to counter a spell functionally before it ever went on the stack. If you weren't fast enough to "interrupt" it, once it went on the stack it was there permenantly. So if you wanted to cast an instant before countering (say, to search for a counter), that wasn't an option. Under the new system, you can have a stack like this:
I cast Hypnotic Specter. Pass
You cast Mystical Tutor. Pass.
I pass.
Mystical Tutor resolves. You search through your library for an instant and put it on top of your library- in this case, Counterspell.
I pass.
You cast Brainstorm. Pass.
I pass.
Brainstorm resolves, being on top of the stack. You draw 3 cards and put 2 back. Gee, I wonder what one card you kept?
I pass.
You cast Counterspell, targetting my Specter which is still sitting politely on the bottom of the stack. Pass.
I fiendishly grin and cast the Memory Lapse I had been holding on your counter. Pass.
You pass.
Memory Lapse resolves, removing the Counter from the stack and putting it on top of your library.
I pass, you pass, the counter isn't on the stack anymore and never resolves, then Hypnotic Specter resolves.

Okay, that seems to bring out some pretty bizzare situations as well. For example, suppose I plop down a Lotus Vale. As part of the casting cost, I need to sacrifice two basic lands. Now, as a response to the lands going into the graveyard, I activate fast effects to return them into my hand.

Originally posted by SnowFire
As for Slivers... no. Look at Darkling Stalker as an example... for 1 black mana, you can pump it +1/+1, and for 1 black mana, you can regenerate it. You choose which ability to use when spending a black mana. Spending a black mana doesn't magically activate both abilities.
So, every Sliver has an ability saying "sacrifice me and get this." Just because the condition is the same for each ability doesn't mean you don't have to choose which one you use...
Note that if every Sliver got the ability "when it goes to the graveyard, blah" then all of them would activate if you could figure out a way to sacrifice it.

It depends on how the abilities are added up. Sometimes abilities have more than one effect to them. For example, "2: Target opponent must paid 2 or target spell is countered. Draw a card at the beginning of your next turn." So, conceivably, that 2 mana could pay for everything in one big massive ability.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Newbie question: I play a Skirk Outrider but I have no beasts in play at that time. Later I draw and play a beast card. Does the Outrider get the +2/+2 then?

It depends on the wording of the text. If it says "...number of beasts when it comes into play..." no. If it says "...number beasts in play..." then yes.

[Panda]

Skirk Outrider
{3}{R}
Creature -- Goblin
2/2
Skirk Outrider gets +2/+2 and has trample as long as you control a Beast.

Assuming that you cast your new Beast spell successfully and your Skirk Outrider remains in play, then yes, the Outrider becomes a 4/4 as a state based effect.

[Panda]

-By the same token, if I've got a land in play that produces more than one mana when tapped (e.g. Lotus Vale or Everglades) but also have a Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon in play (which causes my uber-land to produce only one mana), and I then tap this land for one mana and subsequently destroy the Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon, then am I then subject to mana burn?

< Digs out his Magic Suitcase >

Lotus Vale
Land
When Lotus Vale comes into play, sacrifice two untapped lands or bury Lotus Vale.
T: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.

Everglades
Land
Everglades comes into play tapped.
When Everglades comes into play, return an untapped swamp you control to owner's hand or bury Everglades.
T: Add B and one colorless mana to your mana pool.

Celestial Dawn
{1}{W}{W}
Enchantment
Nonland cards you own that aren't in play are white. Nonland permanents you control are white. Lands you control are plains. Colored mana symbols in the costs on all those cards and permanents are W.

Blood Moon
{2}{R}
Enchantment
All non-basic lands become mountains.

Let's take the Lotus Vale/Blood Moon example: with this combination your Lotus Vale is a basic land called Mountain (T: add R to your mana pool), and does not have any of the abilities of Lotus Vale (so you can't tap for 3 mana while Blood Moon is in play). So you don't take mana burn using these combinations. This works the same for any other combination of cards: where the spell says "this land is a basic land" (plains, mountain, swamp, island, forest), then it loses any ability on the original card because basic lands don't have those abilities. Hope that's clear.

-If I play a land that requires that I sacrifice lands or return lands to my hand when I bring the land into play (e.g. Lotus Vale or Scorched Ruins or Everglades), then how is this effect resolved when I have an enchantment like Blood Moon or Celestial Dawn in play? In other words, if I bring Lotus Vale into play (which requires the sacrifice of 2 basic lands) while Celestial Dawn is in play (which turns all lands into basic Plains), then am I exempt from the land sacrifice? How about if I bring Lotus Vale into play while Celestial Dawn is in play, and then sacrifice Celestial Dawn -- do I have to sacrifice two basic lands, or am I exempt from the cost since Lotus Vale was already in play (even though it was being treated as a basic Plains)?

Sorry, I didn't read the cards properly when I first posted. I don't know for 100%, but I'd guess they come into play as basic lands and you don't have to pay the costs. However cards that come into play tapped will still come into play as tapped basic land.

-If I Donate a Celestial Dawn (or some other similar enchantment) to my opponent, then does Celestial Dawn take immediate effect for my opponent and immediately lose its effect for me? In other words, is the enchantment's effect tranference instantaneous? I ask specifically for the hypothetical when I've got a Gloom and Donate in my hand and have a Celestial Dawn in play -- if I cast a Donate and then a Gloom on the same turn, then does the Donate resolve first, or do they resolve at the same time?

Donate
{2}{U}
Sorcery
Target player gains control of target permanent you control.

Gloom
{2}{B}
Enchantment
White spells cost an additional 3 to cast. White enchantments with activation costs require an additional 3 to use.

The timings of both spells are at sorcery speed, so you can only cast them when you have priority and the stack is empty. I.e. either the Gloom or the Donate must resolve before you cast the other spell.

Celestial Dawn exerts a continuous effect, and when the Donate resolves, yes, the effect ends for you and starts for your oppo. When the stack is next empty and you have priority you can cast Gloom. When this resolves it comes into play and exerts another continuous effect.

-Do Enchant World cards still work as originally intended, or have the rule changes buggered around with them?

No change here (that I can see):

"420.5i If two or more enchant worlds are in play, all except the one that has been an enchant world for the shortest amount of time are put into their owner's graveyards. In the event of a tie for the shortest amount of time, all are put into their owner's graveyards."

N.B. Enchant Worlds are state-based effects.

[Panda]

Then your opponent calls the judge over, if this is a tournament. In order to insure that games actually _end_ and you don't get endless Mexican standoffs, once you pass priority and see if your opponent has a response, if your opponent has no response, the highest thing on the stack resolves since both players have said "pass." Otherwise you could have people passing priority back and forth and yet with neither one wanting to let the stack resolve; somebody has to have the last crack at it.

217.6c "When both players pass in succession, the top (last-played) spell or ability resolves. If the stack is empty when both players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins."

edit: obiwan18, I think you should be moderating this thread to make sure it stays on-topic (this time)

[Urban Ranger]

How does tapping interact with activation of abilities? Suppose I have a 3/3 white creature with "W: gains +1/+1 until the end of the turn." Now, if my opponent zaps it with a Lightning Bolt when it is tapped, can I still pump it up to keep it alive?

[Mr. President]

If the ability doesn't require you to tap the creature, you can use it while the creature is tapped.

[Ben Kenobi]

obiwan18, I think you should be moderating this thread to make sure it stays on-topic (this time)

Sorry. Sundays I'm in church.

Just getting caught up now.

Panda:

He's right about the priority.

Sloppy writing on my point to convey the idea that counterspells have much more flexibility under the new system than the old.

I don't see how this is off-topic, so hereuntoforthwith

I declare your comment off-topic.

[Ben Kenobi]

UR:

Suppose you have the Sliver Queen, a few colourless slivers, and the following:

Would paying 2 mana to sacriface a colourless silver token activate all these effects?

No. For each effect to trigger, you must sacrifice a creature. Therefore, you must decide which effect triggers since the same creature cannot be sacrificed twice.

[Ben Kenobi]

loinburger:

-Do Enchant World cards still work as originally intended, or have the rule changes buggered around with them?

Answered.

Question 1:
if I bring Lotus Vale into play while Celestial Dawn is in play, then am I exempt from the land sacrifice?

No. Celestial Dawn only triggers once the land is in play. The land sacrifice is part of the casting cost of Lotus Vale. Essentially, your combo turns Lotus Vale into a plains that forces you to sacrifice two other lands.

Question 2:
-If I Donate a Celestial Dawn (or some other similar enchantment) to my opponent, then does Celestial Dawn take immediate effect for my opponent and immediately lose its effect for me?

Celestial Dawn is a global enchantment so its effects will continue to affect you even after your opponent gains control of Celestial Dawn.

Question 3:
I ask specifically for the hypothetical when I've got a Gloom and Donate in my hand and have a Celestial Dawn in play -- if I cast a Donate and then a Gloom on the same turn, then does the Donate resolve first, or do they resolve at the same time?

No. Here's the deal. You cannot cast a sorcery on top of an enchantment spell on the stack. The sorcery spell must go on another stack. Therefore, whichever one you cast first will resolve first.

Question 4:
-By the same token, if I've got a land in play that produces more than one mana when tapped (e.g. Lotus Vale or Everglades) but also have a Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon in play (which causes my uber-land to produce only one mana), and I then tap this land for one mana and subsequently destroy the Celestial Dawn or Blood Moon, then am I then subject to mana burn?

No. Tapping for mana is faster than an instant. Therefore, when you destroy the enchantment, your mana is already in your pool, well before the instant can be cast, and your lands revert.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Celestial Dawn is a global enchantment so its effects will continue to affect you even after your opponent gains control of Celestial Dawn.

Celestial Dawn affects only the controller. Otherwise it'd be like a super powerful version of Blood Moon,

[Urban Ranger]

What does "phasing" do?

Anybody want to take a guess what "storm" does?

[Mr. President]

Celestial Dawn says "you", which means its controller.

What does "phasing" do?

Anybody want to take a guess what "storm" does?

I couldn't honestly say I fully understand phasing. I think during your upkeep, you remove the creature from the game with all enchantments, counters, whatever still on it. During your next upkeep, it comes back into play, still with all those enchantments, counters, whatever on it.

Storm is almost as confusing. Suppose I want to play Dragonstorm, which lets me search my library for a Dragon and put it into play. If the Dragonstorm is the first spell I play on my turn, I search for one Dragon and put it into play. No problem.

But if, at the beginning of my main phase, I instead cast a Phyrexian Walker and Tormod's Crypt, and then cast Dragonstorm, the Storm ability counts how many spells were played before Dragonstorm this turn - two. It then makes two copies of Dragonstorm, which go on top of the stack. Each one resolves in turn, and I get to search my library for three Dragons and put them into play.

[Ben Kenobi]

I read that as a global enchantment.

Yes, as soon as you lose control of Celestial Dawn, you lose all the benefits.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by obiwan18
No. Celestial Dawn only triggers once the land is in play. The land sacrifice is part of the casting cost of Lotus Vale. Essentially, your combo turns Lotus Vale into a plains that forces you to sacrifice two other lands.

But the land sacrifice is only mentioned in its card text (not in the casting cost), and doesn't the card text no longer exist if it's a basic plains? Otherwise that would essentially mean that Celestial Dawn (and Blood Moon and any other "turns a land into a basic (blank)" card) causes you to suffer all of the ill effects of your non-basic lands, while gleaning none of their benefits...

If a land is turned into a basic (whatever), then wouldn't that land lose all of its special abilities and penalties?

Besides, even if the card text does exist, it wouldn't apply to the Lotus Vale, since I wouldn't be bringing a Lotus Vale into play (I'd only be bringing a basic Plains into play)...

[Mr. President]

That is way too confusing.

[loinburger]

It just seems to be that the two most likely resolutions to the Blood Moon / Celestial Dawn followed by Lotus Vale (or Scorched Ruins or whatever) followed by Disenchant (or whatever) combination are that either a. the land sacrifice is completely ignored or that b. the land sacrifice occurs when Blood Moon or Celestial Dawn (or whatever) is removed. Blood Moon and Celestial Dawn do not cause Lotus Vale to act as a mountain/plains in addition to being a Lotus Vale, they cause Lotus Vale to act as a mountain/plains in lieu of being a Lotus Vale, so it just doesn't make sense that the land sacrifice would have to take place despite the presence of Blood Moon or Celestial Dawn.

[Mr. President]

Oh, I see.

I guess when you play, you can just choose whichever one you like best.

[Urban Ranger]

However, the wording on the cards are different. Blood Moon says "All non-basic lands are Mountains." That clearly leave no room for interpretation - regardless if the lands are in play or in your hand, they are all mountains for the time being. The only sticky part is, when Blood Moon is removed, do you consider these non-basic lands just coming in to play or not?

For Celestial Dawn, it's a bit more complicated. IIRC, it affects lands "you control." Okay, so if you manage to steal some lands, they become plains. However, are lands in your hand (not in play) under your control?

[Panda]

< digs out his Magic Rulebook >
also found at www.wizards.com
edit: stupid parsing or URLs. Direct link is http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprul...les_043003.doc

410.10. "Trigger events that involve cards or permanents changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that card after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the card in the zone that it moved to. If the card leaves the specified zone before the ability resolves, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the card will fail to do anything. (This rule applies even if the card leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common types of zone-change triggers are comes-into-play triggers and leaves-play triggers."

410.10a "Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event."

410.10b "Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e)."
Example: If an effect reads “All lands are creatures” and a land card is played, the effect makes the land card into a creature the moment it enters play, so it would trigger abilities that trigger when a creature comes into play. Conversely, if an effect reads “All creatures lose all abilities” and a creature card with a comes-into-play triggered ability enters play, that effect will cause it to lose its abilities the moment it enters play, so the comes-into-play ability won’t trigger.

Therefore, the land comes into play as basic land. All text is blanked, so no costs are paid. If the enchantments controlling the static ability leaves play then there are still no costs to be paid because the land has never left play, and changing type or controller does not trigger the CIP ability.

[Panda]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
For Celestial Dawn, it's a bit more complicated. IIRC, it affects lands "you control." Okay, so if you manage to steal some lands, they become plains. However, are lands in your hand (not in play) under your control?

This is the distinction between "ownership" and "control" of a card. You "own" a card if it was originally in your deck, so cards which read: "return >this< to owner's hand" are important. Whereas you can "control" only permanents in play. If the card is in your hand, graveyard, or removed from play you still "own" the cards, but do not control them. There are multiple ways to exchange control of permanents, but ownership is unchanging.