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View Poll Results: WWII fighter beauty contest
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The German Bf 109
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5 |
9.09% |
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The Japanese Zero
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10 |
18.18% |
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The English Spitfire
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27 |
49.09% |
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The American P-51
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7 |
12.73% |
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The Soviet Yak 9
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7.27% |
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The French Dewoitine 520
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2 |
3.64% |
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May 25, 2003, 00:59
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#91
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
or probably because it was far superior to any other plane of its time? 
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I disagree with that bald headed statement.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:03
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#92
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
I disagree with that bald headed statement.
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Sorry to bust your bubble but practically every professional account of WW2 military aviation agrees with my bald headed statement 
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:03
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#93
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Emperor
Local Time: 22:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 9,706
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Joseph:
That's not a Curtiss XP whatever... that was a pic of a Japanese experimental plane...
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May 25, 2003, 01:04
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#94
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
Sorry to bust your bubble but practically every professional account of WW2 military aviation agrees with my bald headed statement
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That is just plain bull****.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:07
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#95
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Joseph
Yak 1 = 8,700
Yak 3 = 4,850
Yak 7 = 6,400
Yak 9D = 16,800
______________
36,750
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yep, my data is remarkably similar:
Yak-1: 8,721
Yak-3: 4,848
Yak-7: 6,399
Yak-9: 16,769 (All Yak-9 variants not just D)
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:08
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#96
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King
Local Time: 19:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ca. USA
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
Well what about my site?
So it is a piece of crap now because your source says something completely different?
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I'm just telling you were I got the book, I have said nothing about were you may have found your source.
To my left, there are three book cases, full of military books. I have more book in my garage and more in a file cabinet. I also have more than 3,000 military model of aeroplane, tanks, cars, etc., in my garage. Someday I will take picture of it and post it here so everyone will know that I,m not kidding around when I discuss the Military or it's equiptment. Just remember that I worked for the military for 33 years.
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May 25, 2003, 01:08
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#97
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Deity
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
That is just plain bull****.
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yeah, whatever...
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:09
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#98
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Emperor
Local Time: 22:15
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Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Philadelphia
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and to Fez and Master Zen:
There were many versions of both the Mustang and the Spitfire... Some Spitfires were superior to the P-51A (i think it was A but the originals in 1943) but were inferior to the better known P-51's of 1944... Supermarine Spitfires, especially past the Spitfire X I believe, were superior to the P-51's... so both of you are right depending on what specific version of each plane you're comparing.
and there's also the carrier version of the Spitfire, the Seafire to also complicate matters.
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May 25, 2003, 01:11
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#99
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Joseph
I'm just telling you were I got the book, I have said nothing about were you may have found your source.
To my left, there are three book cases, full of military books. I have more book in my garage and more in a file cabinet. I also have more than 3,000 military model of aeroplane, tanks, cars, etc., in my garage. Someday I will take picture of it and post it here so everyone will know that I,m not kidding around when I discuss the Military or it's equiptment. Just remember that I worked for the military for 33 years.
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Well I am not talking about you nor me. But the sources.. is my source not credible?
Anyways, the Republic aircraft I was talking about is my fav now.. lol..
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:12
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#100
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Deity
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Joseph
I'm a member of Military Book Club, and I got this book about 2 months ago. It is new. They have a web site. Add .com to the name and you can see the site.
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I've wanted to buy that book for a while now, however, the price is rather steep for this cash-strapped college student 
The book isn't really that new though, I think it had a different name before actually, when I first found it at amazon it was out of print, perhaps this is a new edition with a new name.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:17
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#101
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King
Local Time: 19:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ca. USA
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
yep, my data is remarkably similar:
Yak-1: 8,721
Yak-3: 4,848
Yak-7: 6,399
Yak-9: 16,769 (All Yak-9 variants not just D)
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We are so close that it don't matter. That mean that Mr. John Ellis did his home work before writing his book, The World War II Databook. This is a good read. The book list every battle almost and what was lost by all sides. And it list all production that they could account for of every material needed to fight a war.
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May 25, 2003, 01:18
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#102
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Albert Speer
and to Fez and Master Zen:
There were many versions of both the Mustang and the Spitfire... Some Spitfires were superior to the P-51A (i think it was A but the originals in 1943) but were inferior to the better known P-51's of 1944... Supermarine Spitfires, especially past the Spitfire X I believe, were superior to the P-51's... so both of you are right depending on what specific version of each plane you're comparing.
and there's also the carrier version of the Spitfire, the Seafire to also complicate matters.
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I am unaware of the precise specs of the initial Mustang variant, the P-51B (without the bubbly canopy) but from what I've read, the P-51D was probably superior to the merlin-engined Spitfires (notably Mk. IX and below) whereas the Griffon-engined Spits were superior to the P-51D (major variants being the Mk. XII and XIV and some Seafire variants). There was a final version of the mustang, the P-51H which entered service in small numbers shortly before the war ended, it was probably on par with these.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:19
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#103
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Joseph
We are so close that it don't matter. That mean that Mr. John Ellis did his home work before writing his book, The World War II Databook. This is a good read. The book list every battle almost and what was lost by all sides. And it list all production that they could account for of every material needed to fight a war.
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I'm going to start saving some $$$ then, I guess it is worth the price (last time I checked it was like $80  )
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:20
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#104
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Do I see Master Zen conceding? Well I concede partially... the Spitfire was just as good as the Mustang. Anyways, British aircraft design went downhill from then in my opinion.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:29
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#105
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Emperor
Local Time: 22:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 9,706
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Fez:
yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.
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May 25, 2003, 01:30
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#106
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Join Date: Jan 2003
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
Do I see Master Zen conceding? Well I concede partially... the Spitfire was just as good as the Mustang. Anyways, British aircraft design went downhill from then in my opinion.
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nah, I'm not conceding, I'm just making my point clearer. I never said the Spit was superior to the Mustang in all respects, I said the Griffon-engined Spits were, I was also trying to make it clear that despite the Mustang's contribution to winning the air war, it was the Spit which was by far the best and most important allied fighter until then, and it was still just as important in the Allied arsenal in air operations not involving long-range bomber escort.
As for British aircraft going downhill, what about the Tempest and the Meteor? Both were remarkable planes in their own right. Sure, post WW2-aviation is another thing, they didn't have enough $$ to keep up with US and Soviet designs, today it's just a shadow, besides the Harrier no major British combat aircraft in service (or planned) today is a 100% british venture.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:32
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#107
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Deity
Local Time: 21:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
it was the Spit which was by far the best and most important allied fighter until then,
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In which theater?
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May 25, 2003, 01:32
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#108
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Albert Speer
Fez:
yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.
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And on the other hand, the French haven't done that bad: Rafale, Mirage series...
The Mirage III is along with the MiG-21 and the F-16 probably the most widely used post-war fighter.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:34
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#109
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Deity
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
In which theater?
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I believe the spit-mustang debate is centered on the European theater.
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:42
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#110
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King
Local Time: 19:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ca. USA
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Albert Speer
Fez:
yeah and German aircraft design plummeted... in 1945, they had rocket fighters, jet fighters, jet bombers, the beginnings of vertical take off planes, the beginnings of forward swept wing aircraft, etc. amazing **** that was years ahead of the rest of the world. but since then, i can't think of a single German aircraft.
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Because there are none. Every plane, the Germans have flown since 1945 has been British, or American. There has been some joint venture with England, Italy, etc.
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May 25, 2003, 01:47
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#111
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
And on the other hand, the French haven't done that bad: Rafale, Mirage series...
The Mirage III is along with the MiG-21 and the F-16 probably the most widely used post-war fighter.
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The French aircraft weren't bad for their time.. but the French "airforce" has lagged greatly... in recent times.
Master Zen, you must also accept the fact I can disagree with what you say.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:47
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#112
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Emperor
Local Time: 09:15
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: of Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Posts: 3,345
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
That is just plain bull****.
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Fez,  Me262 was years, if not light years ahead of any other WW2 fighter.
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May 25, 2003, 01:49
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#113
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King
Local Time: 23:15
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Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Serb
Fez, Me262 was years, if not light years ahead of any other WW2 fighter.
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I disagree. They were not light years ahead of anything.
What a dumb post, serb. I know your history.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:50
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#114
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Posts: 10,579
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Joseph
Because there are none. Every plane, the Germans have flown since 1945 has been British, or American. There has been some joint venture with England, Italy, etc.
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I recall Dornier making some patrol/transport aircraft used to some extent today
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:54
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#115
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King
Local Time: 23:15
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Join Date: Apr 2000
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Posts: 1,886
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Ah yes.. the Tornado fighter jet... a favorite of mine.. built by Italy, Germany and Britain in the late 60s...
I completely forgot about it.
Well the Italians did spurn out something... the AMX Fighter jet. A good one for that matter..
Not very well known though. This project was only done by Italy... I think Brazil may have had a part as they received shipments of it, however.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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May 25, 2003, 01:54
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#116
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Deity
Local Time: 20:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Posts: 10,579
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Fez
The French aircraft weren't bad for their time.. but the French "airforce" has lagged greatly... in recent times.
Master Zen, you must also accept the fact I can disagree with what you say.
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Of course you can, isn't that the beauty of discussion in the first place?
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:55
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#117
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King
Local Time: 19:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Ca. USA
Posts: 1,282
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Albert Speer
Joseph:
That's not a Curtiss XP whatever... that was a pic of a Japanese experimental plane...
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You are correct, it is the Kyushu J7W1 Shinden. The XP-55 and the Shinden are very close if you don,t look hard.
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May 25, 2003, 01:55
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#118
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Deity
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Even the AMX is a joint venture, it's an Italian/Brazilian plane actually
EDIT: EMBRAER was the Brazilian aircraft firm involved
__________________
A true ally stabs you in the front.
Secretary General of the U.N. & IV Emperor of the Glory of War PTWDG | VIII Consul of Apolyton PTW ISDG | GoWman in Stormia CIVDG | Lurker Troll Extraordinaire C3C ISDG Final | V Gran Huevote Team Latin Lover | Webmaster Master Zen Online | CivELO (3°)
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May 25, 2003, 01:57
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#119
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Deity
Local Time: 21:15
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Join Date: Sep 1999
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Posts: 11,096
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
I believe the spit-mustang debate is centered on the European theater.
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Then how can we decide if a plain is the most important allied fighter if we only focus on 1/2 the conflict?
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May 25, 2003, 01:58
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#120
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King
Local Time: 23:15
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Master Zen
Even the AMX is a joint venture, it's an Italian/Brazilian plane actually
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Yes but I think Italian companies were the ones flipping most of the bill. And thus Italy got far more shipments of it.
Italy has 129 AMX fighters in total and Brazil has only 41.
Source:
http://www.mylima.com/airforce
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
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